Bought Fishes for competitions

[Lyon Goh]

Heard that its ethically not right to buy fishes to go for competitions.
Wad do you guys think about it?
For me, i agree with that. Or is there such a rule that says no bought fishes shld enter coms, only self bred fishes

[kennho]

who cares ! Not a breeder competition. Unless the club or the show has a general rules for such an event like the one in Taiwan for genetics altered aquacultured fish. So far, I have yet to see a true "breeders' competition".

[kennho]

who cares ! Not a breeder competition. Unless the club or the show has a general rules for such an event like the one in Taiwan for genetics altered aquacultured fish. So far, I have yet to see a true "breeders' competition".

[Myron Tay]

No reason we should restrict entries of "bought" rather than "bred" bettas. We can award special prizes for "bred" fish if we would like to encourage such (such as the one I have established for reds in BCS comps), but need not restrict such entries in the competition proper.

[Myron Tay]

No reason we should restrict entries of "bought" rather than "bred" bettas. We can award special prizes for "bred" fish if we would like to encourage such (such as the one I have established for reds in BCS comps), but need not restrict such entries in the competition proper.

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Lyon Goh

Heard that its ethically not right to buy fishes to go for competitions.
Wad do you guys think about it?
For me, i agree with that. Or is there such a rule that says no bought fishes shld enter coms, only self bred fishes


Just to share.
Would you be able to tell between a betta which is home breed or imported? :)

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Lyon Goh

Heard that its ethically not right to buy fishes to go for competitions.
Wad do you guys think about it?
For me, i agree with that. Or is there such a rule that says no bought fishes shld enter coms, only self bred fishes


Just to share.
Would you be able to tell between a betta which is home breed or imported? :)

[Lyon Goh]

Myron,
I like your idea of that special prizes thing.
Xavier,
good question, i also dunno

[Lyon Goh]

Myron,
I like your idea of that special prizes thing.
Xavier,
good question, i also dunno

[terence tan]

or even better, have sub-categories xclusively for breeders?

[terence tan]

or even better, have sub-categories xclusively for breeders?

[Dr Hsu]

Generally in the betta world, you will know which fish are bought and which are bred - just that most people do not directly accuse others of such as there are no rules against it. My opinion is that there is no advantage in banning such entries, and actually more to gain by allowing it. The only place where it will make a difference is when there is a running tally for end of year awards for best breeder etc. Then some breeders will cry foul....

[Dr Hsu]

Generally in the betta world, you will know which fish are bought and which are bred - just that most people do not directly accuse others of such as there are no rules against it. My opinion is that there is no advantage in banning such entries, and actually more to gain by allowing it. The only place where it will make a difference is when there is a running tally for end of year awards for best breeder etc. Then some breeders will cry foul....

[Phil]

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].

[Phil]

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?

[terence tan]

quote:Originally posted by kennho

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].




Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?




so the richest man with the best foresight wins?? sounds more like gambling or putting it more nicely,like speculating shares. not very rite in the aspect of ethics but not much we can do about it rite?
but then again the competition is for selection of best fishes not best breeders, cant do much to alter this fact isn't it? therefore can't really prevent people from buying fishes to win and later not know how to maintain, let alone breed them, worse, die after competition? -____-...the power of $$$$
~~

[terence tan]

quote:Originally posted by kennho

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].




Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?




so the richest man with the best foresight wins?? sounds more like gambling or putting it more nicely,like speculating shares. not very rite in the aspect of ethics but not much we can do about it rite?
but then again the competition is for selection of best fishes not best breeders, cant do much to alter this fact isn't it? therefore can't really prevent people from buying fishes to win and later not know how to maintain, let alone breed them, worse, die after competition? -____-...the power of $$$$
~~

[terence tan]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


i totally agree with u phil
very true self satisfaction is more important, hehe.. u earned my respect!

[terence tan]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


i totally agree with u phil
very true self satisfaction is more important, hehe.. u earned my respect!

[Dr. Ivan Kho]

agree with Phil.
there's no greater satisfaction than winning a trophy/prize through a fish you've painstakingly bred. it represents a payback of sorts for the time and energy you've spent acquiring the parents (having so many visits to lfs, waiting for a breeder's spawn,ordering from overseas breeders etc), daily feeding, spawning, taking care of the fry etc, not to mention the countless times you've got to change water (aged water at that).
of course, I don't think anybody can restrict a competition to 'bred' fishes only - who's to prove that fact ?
and as phil mentioned, even if my betta is entered for competition under someone elses' name, what the heck, I know its my fish all along. the non tangible reward is more important. anybody can just go out and buy a trophy anyway.

[Dr. Ivan Kho]

agree with Phil.
there's no greater satisfaction than winning a trophy/prize through a fish you've painstakingly bred. it represents a payback of sorts for the time and energy you've spent acquiring the parents (having so many visits to lfs, waiting for a breeder's spawn,ordering from overseas breeders etc), daily feeding, spawning, taking care of the fry etc, not to mention the countless times you've got to change water (aged water at that).
of course, I don't think anybody can restrict a competition to 'bred' fishes only - who's to prove that fact ?
and as phil mentioned, even if my betta is entered for competition under someone elses' name, what the heck, I know its my fish all along. the non tangible reward is more important. anybody can just go out and buy a trophy anyway.

[willieneo]

Agreed with all that the satisfaction of bring your own bred betta for competition give much satisfaction. [col]
But imagine only breeders bring in their fish for competition, the turnout would definitely be greatly affected. Also not all betta enthusiast would want to or know how to breed betta.

[willieneo]

Agreed with all that the satisfaction of bring your own bred betta for competition give much satisfaction. [col]
But imagine only breeders bring in their fish for competition, the turnout would definitely be greatly affected. Also not all betta enthusiast would want to or know how to breed betta.

[walt parker]

I think some of the bettas some breeders, like Phil enter or show in his photo album are much better than those that I can buy from outside. How to get those?

[walt parker]

I think some of the bettas some breeders, like Phil enter or show in his photo album are much better than those that I can buy from outside. How to get those?

[Phil]

Hi Waltz, Thank you for taking an interest in my bettas. I do sell some of my Competition grade bettas, to my fellow hobbyist, but not all of them. As any avid breeder, I would always reserve the best bettas for myself. These bettas are priceless to me and some of them are the results of years of hard deligent work put in by either my partner or myself. That is the one reason why, I have always encouraged my fellow hobbyist to go into breeding their own stock. If you are really seeking top grade bettas, than breed them yourself. It will be advantageous for you to buy the best available stock in the market, as this will definitely shorten your work, but work on your part is still much required, in order for you to create your own line. By keeping and breeding the best deligently, you would one day be able to acquire those top grade bettas that you seek. Wouldn't you then be able to enjoy the satisfaction for having bred the best there is? Wishing you all the best.

[Phil]

Hi Waltz, Thank you for taking an interest in my bettas. I do sell some of my Competition grade bettas, to my fellow hobbyist, but not all of them. As any avid breeder, I would always reserve the best bettas for myself. These bettas are priceless to me and some of them are the results of years of hard deligent work put in by either my partner or myself. That is the one reason why, I have always encouraged my fellow hobbyist to go into breeding their own stock. If you are really seeking top grade bettas, than breed them yourself. It will be advantageous for you to buy the best available stock in the market, as this will definitely shorten your work, but work on your part is still much required, in order for you to create your own line. By keeping and breeding the best deligently, you would one day be able to acquire those top grade bettas that you seek. Wouldn't you then be able to enjoy the satisfaction for having bred the best there is? Wishing you all the best.

[Myron Tay]

Xavier has hit the nail on the head. How are you going to exclude "bought" fishes from competitions?

However, special awards can be given breeders based on self-declaration. I feel confident in sponsoring the breeder award for red long non-fringed-finned category because I would be able to ascertain after some time if the the winning fish is bought or bred.

quote:Originally posted by Xavier Tan

quote:Originally posted by Lyon Goh

Heard that its ethically not right to buy fishes to go for competitions.
Wad do you guys think about it?
For me, i agree with that. Or is there such a rule that says no bought fishes shld enter coms, only self bred fishes


Just to share.
Would you be able to tell between a betta which is home breed or imported? :)

[Myron Tay]

Xavier has hit the nail on the head. How are you going to exclude "bought" fishes from competitions?

However, special awards can be given breeders based on self-declaration. I feel confident in sponsoring the breeder award for red long non-fringed-finned category because I would be able to ascertain after some time if the the winning fish is bought or bred.

quote:Originally posted by Xavier Tan

quote:Originally posted by Lyon Goh

Heard that its ethically not right to buy fishes to go for competitions.
Wad do you guys think about it?
For me, i agree with that. Or is there such a rule that says no bought fishes shld enter coms, only self bred fishes


Just to share.
Would you be able to tell between a betta which is home breed or imported? :)

[Phil]

Ken, yes I am aware that there are some unscrupulous practices in some competition,but take it from me that this problem exist everywhere, whether in Singapore, Indonesia or even in the West. What we need to realize is that by agreeing to take part in a competition, we are actually signing a contract between ourselves and the organizers that no matter what, we will abide by the decision of the judge. Hence,it is really pointless to create a racket over unfair judges. The only thing that we can act on is to boycott blacklisted judges, by not entering in competition that these blacklisted judges are judging in. That is one reason why it is important for a judge especially in the final round to highlight his reasons (both positive and negative)for having chosen his winner. But my point really is that winning or losing does not matter that much, because quality bettas are quality bettas and our purpose of entering the competition is because we want to compare it vis-a-vis others and we want others to point out the negative points of our bettas so that we can try improving on them.It is thus a learning experience. Yes winning a competition is an added bonus, but at every competition only a few can be selected into the top slots, so don't be too disheartened by the outcome of competitions as all judging, even by the best of judges is still subjective.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?

[Phil]

Ken, yes I am aware that there are some unscrupulous practices in some competition,but take it from me that this problem exist everywhere, whether in Singapore, Indonesia or even in the West. What we need to realize is that by agreeing to take part in a competition, we are actually signing a contract between ourselves and the organizers that no matter what, we will abide by the decision of the judge. Hence,it is really pointless to create a racket over unfair judges. The only thing that we can act on is to boycott blacklisted judges, by not entering in competition that these blacklisted judges are judging in. That is one reason why it is important for a judge especially in the final round to highlight his reasons (both positive and negative)for having chosen his winner. But my point really is that winning or losing does not matter that much, because quality bettas are quality bettas and our purpose of entering the competition is because we want to compare it vis-a-vis others and we want others to point out the negative points of our bettas so that we can try improving on them.It is thus a learning experience. Yes winning a competition is an added bonus, but at every competition only a few can be selected into the top slots, so don't be too disheartened by the outcome of competitions as all judging, even by the best of judges is still subjective.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

I would look at it from a different angle. It is not so much about just winning or losing a competition, but more to see that your own self bred bettas match those or if not, are better than those that are purchased from abroad. For me, what is more important is the personal satisfaction of knowing that the bettas that we breed are among the best there is. Whether my bettas are entered under my own name or someone elses name makes very little difference to me, since I am not competing with someone else,[eb] but my bettas are[ber].


Right ON ! Sometime in any competition, it's a match of $$$ and deals outside the tanks. It's very common, and pretty normal. In a recent competition I got to know, whoever willing to pay, will win.

If the question of being ethically right, it's a very tough question and to a small % of people, they tends to strongly disagree. Of course, the question might be just based on a fish call betta, maybe guppy or some other fishes that could be breeded in door. To some other hobbyists and their fishes which nearly impossible to be bred at home, then this question is not going to make them very happy. To them, they are challenging each other for something else in any competition.

Why not dig into Aquarama 2001 betta result ??? U will be surprise to know some fishes were purchased just a couple of weeks from the show and won. Worst, some of them might not have any idea how to breed or even keep them ! What can you say about it ?

[terence tan]

yeah, beauty is subjective, and in the eye of the beholder.

[terence tan]

yeah, beauty is subjective, and in the eye of the beholder.

[Myron Tay]

Here's another way to differentiate "bred" from "bought" - insist that "bred" fish be entered in trios instead of single fish. That is what IBC does with its breeders category:

Suggest that for future competitions that we have breeders division as well.

Division G: Breeders Division
G1. Male Trios
G2. Female Trios
G3. Pairs

So is this doable here in Singapore for our local betta competitions?

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here's another way to differentiate "bred" from "bought" - insist that "bred" fish be entered in trios instead of single fish. That is what IBC does with its breeders category:

Suggest that for future competitions that we have breeders division as well.

Division G: Breeders Division
G1. Male Trios
G2. Female Trios
G3. Pairs

So is this doable here in Singapore for our local betta competitions?


Great Idea!

[Phil]

Great idea ! Create a breeders category.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here's another way to differentiate "bred" from "bought" - insist that "bred" fish be entered in trios instead of single fish. That is what IBC does with its breeders category:

Suggest that for future competitions that we have breeders division as well.

Division G: Breeders Division
G1. Male Trios
G2. Female Trios
G3. Pairs

So is this doable here in Singapore for our local betta competitions?

[Sebas]

I am for this

[Lyon Goh]

yea, me too

[kennho]

Still the same question : How will the judges know that the entries ARE in fact breeded by the so call "breeder" ? He can on behalf of someone, or purchased a trio instead.

HOW ???

[Myron Tay]

Agree that it is not 100% full-proof, but it is highly unlikely that someone is willing to spend on three champion fishes just to win the breeders category (but it could happen). There is also no certainty that someone else might enter for some other breeder. But surely this is a small risk that we can take to encourage our breeders?

Hopefully the consequences (banned from further competitions) of being found out would be a sufficient deterent.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Still the same question : How will the judges know that the entries ARE in fact breeded by the so call "breeder" ? He can on behalf of someone, or purchased a trio instead.

HOW ???