Extended Red / Distribution of Red

[Myron Tay]

Believe that there is some confusion regarding the definition of an extended red betta.
The extended red gene in bettas is used to describe that gene which produces an abnormal (as compared to normal spread) amount of spread of red, non-red (and perhaps black) pigment on the betta, similar to the spread iridolyte gene for the irridescence colours.
However, as there are other factors that affect the physical appearance of the betta(such as the presence of the non-red gene which dictates that the betta to show non-red in places where there would normally be red), a betta with the extended red gene may not even be red!
There are also several other factors (amount of irids, amount of black pigment, intensity of colour) which shape the ideal red betta. Hence, an extended red betta merely refers to a betta with the gene and is not sufficient to describe the ideal red betta. However, the ideal red betta should necessarily have the extended red gene.
Comments anyone?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

Myron,

does not extended red requires the pec. fins to be red-covered as well? [cnf]
Alex

To rephrase your question to a more general one, how extended does the spread of red have to be for the betta to be considered an extended red?

Excellent question! As per my explanation in my email above, the term "extended red" merely describes that gene which produces more spread of red, non-red (and perhaps black) pigment on a betta than would otherwise be seen on a "wild" betta (i.e. this does not necessary mean that the betta has to come from the wild. Just means that it does not exhibit the extended red trait. In other words, it is a betta with traces of red normally on the fins but not on the body). This gene is not simple mendalian (it is a function of several traits), but is dominant over the "wild" betta form which means that if you breed an extended red betta to a "wild" betta, you should see only extended reds in the offspring, though the extent of the spread of the red would vary amongst the spawn.

For example, the following are examples of extended red bettas but have different spread of red:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453163012_Extended Red.jpg

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron%20Tay/Red%20HM%202.jpg

Note: I have previously identified the first betta as a normal red and I have since revised my thinking. Do apologise for the confusion.

Your question also touches a related aspect: the purity of red colour. The purity of red is a more complicated but related issue. This relates very often to the question of white / irridescent coloured pelvic fins, black scales, black fin lining and irridescence on the body. This should be separated from the extended red issue because to get a purely red betta involves more genes than just simply the extended red gene. It would involve genes to remove or reduce black and irridescence from the fish as well. These in my experience also do not follow simple mendalian rules.

So to summarise, extended red bettas merely differ from other bettas in that they have more red pigmentation, more red "extended" to their bodies. To answer Alex's question, yes, the fish may still carry the extended red gene even if its pectorals are not completely red.

[Alex Lim]

Myron,

many thanks.

[Svein]

Myron

It's funney and pity that the extended red has been "wrecked" threw years of breeding for another colors, and I think the main problem today is the irid. color.

I have made a breeding program, and because of living in Norway,(problem getting new lines) I have to use som time, so I have put a 4-5 years to get a extended red, which I can be proud of!.

I think I know what color I will use in the program: extended red, yellow, cambodian red and melano and a couple of colors more:)
I think the "secret" why some breeders have a better result than other is, how to put together the filialgeneration , how they are using innbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing in a system. Of course there are a lot of experience, and as San Young syas,: culling, culling and culling, and I'm agree.

It funney looking at picture for the late 70 and 80, there were a lot of nice clean extended red veiltail, so I hope that we will see more and more of these clean juweles.
Regards Svein

[Myron Tay]

Made some changes to my second post after re-reading an article on extended reds by Dr Lucas. Sorry for the confusion.

[sylwester]

Thanks to this forum I actually went from thinking that extended red was a colour.

After reading a little more I guess the awakening came when I read what a non-extended red looked like. A fish that does not have ANY extended red would have red (or yellow) pigmentation mainly on caudial, anal and ventral fins. So no full-colour red or yellow fish have wild genes but degrees of extended-red.

[sylwester]

Thanks to this forum I actually went from thinking that extended red was a colour.

After reading a little more I guess the awakening came when I read what a non-extended red looked like. A fish that does not have ANY extended red would have red (or yellow) pigmentation mainly on caudial, anal and ventral fins. So no full-colour red or yellow fish have wild genes but degrees of extended-red.

[David Esguerra]

Actually, not just full color red or yellow but any full color fish. The blues greens and steels have the spread irridocyte which is not a wild gene. I am even of the opinion that there is a separate "spread" gene responsible for the full colored fish.

I don't know if you've heard of this but theoretically, the wild type betta which would look rather dull, usually dull brown or at best a mess of green and red have all the colors of the present day bettas in it. It would in theory have the steel, the green, the red, and yellow (not non red but a real yellow that has not really been developed).

It only took a great deal of mutations and selective breeding to let those color and color layers be apparent in today's bettas which is quite far off from the dull brown wild betta splendens.

[David Esguerra]

Actually, not just full color red or yellow but any full color fish. The blues greens and steels have the spread irridocyte which is not a wild gene. I am even of the opinion that there is a separate "spread" gene responsible for the full colored fish.

I don't know if you've heard of this but theoretically, the wild type betta which would look rather dull, usually dull brown or at best a mess of green and red have all the colors of the present day bettas in it. It would in theory have the steel, the green, the red, and yellow (not non red but a real yellow that has not really been developed).

It only took a great deal of mutations and selective breeding to let those color and color layers be apparent in today's bettas which is quite far off from the dull brown wild betta splendens.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by **** WeiMyron,

So does it mean that if I cross F1 of a pure cambodian parent x another parent with extended red gene, theoritically there are 3 types of phenotype in the offsprings.

1. pure cambodian
2. red with lack of red intensity (have some red pigments on the body)
3. red

So is type 1 also called an extended red if it's extended red geno but a pure cambodian pheno?

The pure cambodian from the F1 might have the extended gene because the F2 may throw out some red is you breed a pair of pure cambodian pheno parents from the F1

**** Wei

Again, when we talk about cambodians, we should really be talking in terms of whether the fish carries the cambodian gene or not. So the key question is whether your cambodian (which undoubtly carries the cambodian gene) carries the extended red gene or not (remembering that there are blue cambodians as well with none or minimum red)?

So the results would depend also on whether the extended red parent (which undoubtly carries the extended red gene) carries the cambodian gene as well.

So, assuming that the cambodian carries extended red gene (i.e. cambodian red) and the extended red carries the cambodian gene as well, you should get:

(i) 50% cambodian red
(ii) 50% red (with cambodian genes, but do not look "cambodian" but rather red, but is suspected to have a lighter intensity of red than reds with no cambodian gene)

If you do a cross of the extended red siblings from the above crossing, you would get
(i) 25% cambodian red
(ii) 50% red (with cambodian gene)
(iii) 25% red (with no cambodian gene)

If you pair off two reds with no cambodian gene from the spawn, you would be able to remove the cambodian gene from the line. However, they are difficult to distinguish from reds which carry the cambodian gene sometimes. Should you pair off reds which carry the cambodian gene, you would get back:
(i) 25% cambodian red
(ii) 50% red (with cambodian gene)
(iii) 25% red (with no cambodian gene)

If you choose one (ii) and one (iii), you should get:

(i) 25% red (with cambodian gene)
(ii) 75% red (with cambodian gene)

With some luck, you should be able to remove the cambodian gene from the line with subsequent spawnings.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by **** WeiNow we have

1. pure extended reds
2. extended red geno with cambo pheno
3. extended red pheno with cambodian geno
4. pure cambodian.


So back to the original question. What phenotype is a normal red? 2 should describe your traditional red cambodian. 4 would describe your blue cambodian for example. A normal red is a contradiction since "normal" for genetic purposes describes the wild form and there is not a lot of red in the wild betta.

[Myron Tay]

We should work to increase the spread of intense red all of the the pure red betta, especially red colouration on the heads and gill covers. This has been lacking in many red lines I have come across.

[Myron Tay]

I believe that the intensity of the red is also dependent on this gene or group of genes that determine the spread of red on the betta. I believe it works in the manner described by Sylwester on the following thread: http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=187&whichpage=5

I reproduce it below:

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

According to lucas Er has an dominant behaviour that would make Myrons example more correct i guess.
RRR (most spread of reds)
rrr (least spread of reds)

If they were on the same chromosones and they were many more.. like a 100 genes and subject to recomibation an totally homogeneous extended red and a wild type would yield hetrogeneous on all locus.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++...

When an egg or sperm-cell gets created the two chromosone braches would exchange elleles making two eggs like this.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++ +++++...

Where they brake is random but the chances of them breaking between two locus is depending on physical distance on the chromosone. There are then two compliment eggs in each spawn. Another random pair of sperm might brake on different points...

RR+++++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR R++++...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

Now consider taking one egg and one sperm-cell... to make one fish in the spawn.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

some points are homogeneous but others are heterogeneous. By random selection you would expect that some of the dominant Er locus is lost to wild-type and the only way to get it back is an out-cross. The hetrogeneous can be selected to reach homogeneous Er.. and look something like this:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...

Just a thought though.

[Alex Lim]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I believe that the intensity of the red is also dependent on this gene or group of genes that determine the spread of red on the betta. I believe it works in the manner described by Sylwester on the following thread: http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=187&whichpage=5

I reproduce it below:

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

According to lucas Er has an dominant behaviour that would make Myrons example more correct i guess.
RRR (most spread of reds)
rrr (least spread of reds)

If they were on the same chromosones and they were many more.. like a 100 genes and subject to recomibation an totally homogeneous extended red and a wild type would yield hetrogeneous on all locus.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++...

When an egg or sperm-cell gets created the two chromosone braches would exchange elleles making two eggs like this.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++ +++++...

Where they brake is random but the chances of them breaking between two locus is depending on physical distance on the chromosone. There are then two compliment eggs in each spawn. Another random pair of sperm might brake on different points...

RR+++++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR R++++...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

Now consider taking one egg and one sperm-cell... to make one fish in the spawn.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

some points are homogeneous but others are heterogeneous. By random selection you would expect that some of the dominant Er locus is lost to wild-type and the only way to get it back is an out-cross. The hetrogeneous can be selected to reach homogeneous Er.. and look something like this:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...

Just a thought though.



i agree, the onus is on us to produce reds belonging to the RRR side of the continuum. even homozygenity for this end range is not easy to get, i think. maybe, that's why the top reds are never easy to produce and occurs once a while? i mean where colour is concern.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

p/s: just to add in, some of Sarawut's reds have a tendency to blossom its colour in a later period.
Good observation, Alex. Red is one of the last colour pigments to appear on bettas. This is the reason why some ordinary juvenile reds (with quite a bit of irridescence) can blossom into fantastic adults (with not as much irridescence). The red colour simply overwhelms and manages to downplay the irridescence, though the irridescence is still visible to the discerning eye.

Having said that, I have noticed that even amongst the spawn of the same size and age, the red colour appears more intense in some as compared to their siblings. There is variation even in the aspect of red appearing on the fish.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Svein

Myron

It's funney and pity that the extended red has been "wrecked" threw years of breeding for another colors, and I think the main problem today is the irid. color.Svein

Unfortunately, irridescence on reds have always been a problem that never got eliminated. I have read some 30-year-old articles by Dr Lucas describing the same exact problem!

quote:I have made a breeding program, and because of living in Norway,(problem getting new lines) I have to use som time, so I have put a 4-5 years to get a extended red, which I can be proud of!Way to go, Svein!

quote:It funney looking at picture for the late 70 and 80, there were a lot of nice clean extended red veiltail, so I hope that we will see more and more of these clean juweles.Guess this is the problem with just working on colour and neglecting finnage. You have to start from square one.

[Alex Lim]

Myron, i'm not sure why, but i may have a nudging love for such reds
:D such is the effect of heavy density of the red colouration. fantastic don't you think?

it may explain yet another factor for the breeder in reduction of irrids.

cheerZ

[Myron Tay]

Speaking about the distribution or spread of red colour on bettas, there are bettas with
(i) no red (exhibiting the non-red gene),
(ii) a 'normal' amount of red (exhibiting the same amount of red as a wild "betta imbellis"),
(iii) an extended amount of red (exhibiting the extended red gene), and
(iv) a patterned red (exhibiting the variegated gene).

Of course, because the spread of red varies so much even within the same spawn, it could result in a whole spectrum of the spread of red (from none to covering every part of the fish). For example, I have fries with fully red faces and fries with no red on the cheeks and mouth. I have had fries with red right to the edges of all the fins and fries with a clear distinct band of non-red on the ends of all the fins (i.e. a clear butterfly).

[Myron Tay]

I disagree that the spread and intensity of red is controlled by a single gene. If it were so, we would see either:

(i) bettas that were full, intense red and bettas that had minimal, non-intense red; OR

(ii) bettas that are full, non-intense red as well as bettas that had minimal, intense red.

As it is, all four bettas exist.