Breeding 'butterflies'

[Foo Hong]

No these are not 6 legged, 4 winged and developed from caterpillars. Also they do not refer to DT bettas as is still in the minds of many hobbyist....due to the outlet at XXXXXXXX YYY.

These are colour definitions. A BF can be created in any colour. BF means the fins show 2 or more 'bands' of colour, instead of 1 solid colour.

How many of you luv BF? BF bettas to be precise?

[imported_n/a]

If its translucent...is it considered a BF?
Picture of my Steel STM spread in between 175 and 180...i think.
http://www.geocities.com/doraemon70.geo/bfries

[Chris Yew]

The line dividing the 2 parts are not 'straight' meaning both side must be equal. That's why butterflies are so difficult to achieve. Yours isn't it Black Lace - not too sure.

quote:
If its translucent...is it considered a BF?
Picture of my Steel STM spread in between 175 and 180...i think.
http://www.geocities.com/doraemon70.geo/bfries




Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

I have difficulty accessing yr page so I ll just comment in general. It doesnt mean that end sof fins having clear areas are considered BFs although BF are bettas with fins having white or clear egdes. Many iris for eg having clear areas in caudal ends but not elsewhere and hence these are more colour faults in a competition. This sound contradictory but the colour/clear-white patterns shld ideally be 50/50 although again its not fully fixable a trait.

I have an imported BF blue/white with a close to ideal pattern which I will be spawning soon. If he is intact, I will show him on 31 Aug. Finnage wise I think he is so-so, though above average.

[imported_n/a]

I've uploaded the picture into 'Bettahan' under Doraemon's floder.

[Dr Hsu]

Theoretically, a butterfly should have color bands of even width on the fins ie regular butterfly should have a 50% split; triband, 1/3:1/3:1/3. Also, the seperation of the colors should be distinct (sharp), and ideally the colors should be of high contrast to each other.

(looks black....is it steel?) Not a good angle to assess your fish but like Chris says, it looks like a black lace type finnage as this pattern fits black lace finnage, except that the clear areas in your fish look larger than regular black lace fish. If steel, then it looks more like the clear edging type finnage that Foo Hong talked about. Considered more of a fault - if competing with a regular butterfly patterned fish, would likely not place well. If the clear areas were white, then you'd have a pretty nice butterfly! Overall looks like quite a nice fish anyway.

Regards,

Li Chieh

"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

Edited by - Dr Hsu on 10 Aug 2002 18:20:17

[Ong Chin Kiong]

Has anyone seen a red with white band butterfly betta?
How to breed such a fish?
I have seen blue/white and tur/white, but haven't see a red/white combination.
In general, how to breed a butterfly line? Do both of the parent need to have the bf gene in order to get bf off-spring or anyone of the parent has the bf gene can produce bf off-spring?

[Foo Hong]

There are red/white butterflies

[Kelvin Tan]

but the red wouldnt be ext red, more like purplish red or dirty red like holygrail's right?

anyway how do we produce butterfly?

[Foo Hong]

There are extended red BF with white edges. Saichon/chiangmai in Thailand had one that won RBOS in last KL show. Colour almost perfect.

[Kelvin Tan]

anyway how do we produce butterfly?

[Ong Chin Kiong]

Is it difficult to lock-in the butterfly trait? How to improve the color of a butterfly betta?

[Mark Choon]

i'm interested in butterflys too
i got a few of these from crossing turquoise HM male from uncle foong to a opaque blue SD female from kelvin.

colors: i think there are either 3 band bfs or blue/white with some red wash
finnage: at most SD...

i guess i have a long way to go in creating really nice bfs

[Ong Ginyew]

hey kelvin....tell me more about it too...

[Mark Choon]

kelvin...
anxiously waiting
but i can't spawn until after my exam period....
which is in april
still need to clear off this batch of younglings also...

[Mark Choon]

see how 1st...i might be able to spawn but must get my timing rite
so that i wont be bogged down during my exam time. or i can just do a F2 first.
i got some females very clean rb with white fin edges

[Mark Choon]

see how 1st...i might be able to spawn but must get my timing rite
so that i wont be bogged down during my exam time. or i can just do a F2 first.
i got some females very clean rb with white fin edges

[Chris Yew]

If you will to take a look at Angie's website;
http://www.sweetwaterseaspwd.com/betta/betta_patterns_page.htm

You will be able to see some nice butterflies and variegated fins betta. The Red/White pic on her site shows a nice variegated fin betta but not a good butterfly. Further down, there's a nice Blue/White butterfly from her Majesty Line.


quote:Originally posted by Ong Chin Kiong

Has anyone seen a red with white band butterfly betta?
How to breed such a fish?
I have seen blue/white and tur/white, but haven't see a red/white combination.
In general, how to breed a butterfly line? Do both of the parent need to have the bf gene in order to get bf off-spring or anyone of the parent has the bf gene can produce bf off-spring?

[Chris Yew]

If you will to take a look at Angie's website;
http://www.sweetwaterseaspwd.com/betta/betta_patterns_page.htm

You will be able to see some nice butterflies and variegated fins betta. The Red/White pic on her site shows a nice variegated fin betta but not a good butterfly. Further down, there's a nice Blue/White butterfly from her Majesty Line.


quote:Originally posted by Ong Chin Kiong

Has anyone seen a red with white band butterfly betta?
How to breed such a fish?
I have seen blue/white and tur/white, but haven't see a red/white combination.
In general, how to breed a butterfly line? Do both of the parent need to have the bf gene in order to get bf off-spring or anyone of the parent has the bf gene can produce bf off-spring?

[Chris Yew]

Are there many members or non members locally doing butterflies seriously? I don't think so as there are not many beautiful butterflies in the past competitions. So it may be that many do not have the experience or knowledge to post regarding betterflies, and not that they would not share.

There are also much discussion on the butterflies traits over at the Betta Genetically Speaking forum;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bettageneticallyspeaking/message/280




quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

mark i will pass you the butterfly female at the road show, it has thrown out butterfly fries crossing to normal tur.

there are ways to improve butterflies, but guess not many ppl would share, i will try and find out more and tell you.

[Chris Yew]

Are there many members or non members locally doing butterflies seriously? I don't think so as there are not many beautiful butterflies in the past competitions. So it may be that many do not have the experience or knowledge to post regarding betterflies, and not that they would not share.

There are also much discussion on the butterflies traits over at the Betta Genetically Speaking forum;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bettageneticallyspeaking/message/280




quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

mark i will pass you the butterfly female at the road show, it has thrown out butterfly fries crossing to normal tur.

there are ways to improve butterflies, but guess not many ppl would share, i will try and find out more and tell you.

[Mark Choon]

i think in terms of even banding...the best bf male i have is similar to Angie's Majesty line
only diff is mine has some red wash

kelvin hopefully with the female u are passing to me, something fantastic will come out of it =)

Chris: i think ChenWenke over at arofan also did a same cross as mine, but results not as good

[Mark Choon]

i think in terms of even banding...the best bf male i have is similar to Angie's Majesty line
only diff is mine has some red wash

kelvin hopefully with the female u are passing to me, something fantastic will come out of it =)

Chris: i think ChenWenke over at arofan also did a same cross as mine, but results not as good

[Chris Yew]

Guess you alreadi got the answer yourself. It's exactly like marble gene, difficult to control the degree of variation.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

remember the grand champion line from first competition, heard throw out 100% butterflies or soemthing close to that. but ya i think also not many doing butterflies cos its hard to stabilise the genes.

[Chris Yew]

Guess you alreadi got the answer yourself. It's exactly like marble gene, difficult to control the degree of variation.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

remember the grand champion line from first competition, heard throw out 100% butterflies or soemthing close to that. but ya i think also not many doing butterflies cos its hard to stabilise the genes.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Mark,

This description by Jim is very good;
http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics4.htm

The important point is "the effects are highly variable from fish to fish" and thus is difficult to predict the outcome.

quote:Originally posted by Mark Choon

i think in terms of even banding...the best bf male i have is similar to Angie's Majesty line
only diff is mine has some red wash

kelvin hopefully with the female u are passing to me, something fantastic will come out of it =)

Chris: i think ChenWenke over at arofan also did a same cross as mine, but results not as good

[Chris Yew]

Hi Mark,

This description by Jim is very good;
http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics4.htm

The important point is "the effects are highly variable from fish to fish" and thus is difficult to predict the outcome.

quote:Originally posted by Mark Choon

i think in terms of even banding...the best bf male i have is similar to Angie's Majesty line
only diff is mine has some red wash

kelvin hopefully with the female u are passing to me, something fantastic will come out of it =)

Chris: i think ChenWenke over at arofan also did a same cross as mine, but results not as good

[Mark Choon]

qouted from Jim Sonnier's website:
The variegated fin mutation is dominant but the effects are highly variable from fish to fish. Usually a spawning will produce a few outstanding Butterflies and many that do not have a very good pattern. To develop a Betta strain with the perfect Butterfly pattern would be a notable accomplishment for any breeder!

wonder when i can reach that standard haha

kelvin: oops paiseh ah me no bapok! and i think have to wait till early May b4 i can lay my hands on her...see how lah...tough semester for me

[Mark Choon]

qouted from Jim Sonnier's website:
The variegated fin mutation is dominant but the effects are highly variable from fish to fish. Usually a spawning will produce a few outstanding Butterflies and many that do not have a very good pattern. To develop a Betta strain with the perfect Butterfly pattern would be a notable accomplishment for any breeder!

wonder when i can reach that standard haha

kelvin: oops paiseh ah me no bapok! and i think have to wait till early May b4 i can lay my hands on her...see how lah...tough semester for me

[Mark Choon]

hmm noticed that those who are butterflying dont have a black head like those who are solids...
their head like reddish, piebald?
or a manifestation of marbling genes?

kelvin: how how how? i still got over 50 left in the comm tank. not to mention others that are jarred but mostly females...

[Mark Choon]

hmm noticed that those who are butterflying dont have a black head like those who are solids...
their head like reddish, piebald?
or a manifestation of marbling genes?

kelvin: how how how? i still got over 50 left in the comm tank. not to mention others that are jarred but mostly females...

[Dr Hsu]

Actually there shouldn't be to much mystery and secret to breeding butterflies, just a lot of hard work.....

Butterflies are basically a certain pattern variation of the variegated fin gene (vf). As mentioned already, dominant, but as with most things in bettas, possibly interacts with some other genes to give slightly varying results. To get good butterflies (nice and even 50% demarcation of fins with distinct seperation of colors, preferbly constrasting colors) one needs to breed like to like, and the best to the best, over many generations.....and at the same time watching other variables such as intensity of color, finnage etc. Just lots of hard work!

[Dr Hsu]

Actually there shouldn't be to much mystery and secret to breeding butterflies, just a lot of hard work.....

Butterflies are basically a certain pattern variation of the variegated fin gene (vf). As mentioned already, dominant, but as with most things in bettas, possibly interacts with some other genes to give slightly varying results. To get good butterflies (nice and even 50% demarcation of fins with distinct seperation of colors, preferbly constrasting colors) one needs to breed like to like, and the best to the best, over many generations.....and at the same time watching other variables such as intensity of color, finnage etc. Just lots of hard work!

[Kenny Poh]

Talking about butterflies,

I've gotten a spawn from a cross betw. a butterfly/variegated cambodian male and a cambodian female, and got some results that like you guys to help me interprete:

1. Father

I'd call it variegated since the pattern isn't that clear cut as in banding seen in butterfly, the fins are clear cellophane on the outer border, with irregular red bands intruding into the cellophane area.

Although caudal spread is over 120 degrees, some caudal rays do not have tertiary splits, while others have

2. Mother

This is phenotypically a cambodian with light body and homogenous red fins. A few specks of irridescence can be seen on the body

Caudal spread is fairly good, estimated to be at least 150 degrees, and long for a female

3. F1 generation

Though the spawn is just about 34 strong, it throws out a few colur variations: yellows, cambodians, variegated cambodians

One interesting thing to note: the phenotype of most of the females is like those of their father: variegated fins, lack of complete tertiary splits, and smaller delta caudal spread.

All males except the yellows in this spawn looks like the mother: cambodian body and fins, tertiary splits present even at a tender age of 4 wks, at least 150 degrees superdelta caudal spread. None of the males has variegation.

The above applies to those fishes minus the yellows in the spawn.

Anyone like to comment on this result. Of course, 34 frys are not conclusive, so I done another spawn with the same pairing and this has yielded me close to 300 frys which are 3 wks old. Will be interested to see the percentage of each phenotype present.

Cheers,

Kenny

[jonpoh]

An article mentioned by Dr Gene lucas states that the genes in-charge of controlling the finnage...comes from the female.. However... in the article itself... the gene is pointing towards the controlling of the length of the finnage and not the spread..
So... unless poor finnage is caused by the expression of X X chromosomes.... I wonder why?...

[Dr Hsu]

Good question, Jon - KIV for the boss himself when he gives us a talk......

[Mark Choon]

where's the above mentioned article?

[jonpoh]

Can be found in .... FAMA magazine.. issue AUGUST 2001...
Note that it is short sentence.

[Myron Tay]

For those interested in breeding butterflies, Watt (Grandbetta) seems to have either done a hundred spawns or have stabilised the variegated gene in his line of blue butterflies. Check out his butterflies on Aquabid!

Royal Blue Butterfly

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453185338_Royal Blue Butterfly.jpg

[Alex Lim]

How many years would it take to pursue a hundred spawns? my god... LOTS of time and effort has been used to at least get the current form. i think 2-3 generations is still needed to increase caudal size. but it's really impressive [col]

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

How many years would it take to pursue a hundred generations? my god... LOTS of time and effort has been used to at least get the current form. i think 2-3 generations is still needed to increase caudal size. but it's really impressive [col]
[bt] Not a hundred generations, a hundred spawns! You should be able to get one or two good butterflies from each spawn that carries the variegated gene.

[derrick kuah]

Myron,
The pics is my f3 from my line. Right now ,i have three spawns(f4) from him(and sudling).Jarred some last week. Thought i lost "it"(butterfly pattern) but found solid white ring starting to grow around the edges of finnages (on fries). Got quite a nos of the same pattern fishes.Last generation(f3) , managed to get arounbd 30% with butterfly patterned but none of female.This generation already found some female , also"marbled type with butterfly....Will post pics next week if i can find time ,to take pics.
Note: only jarred from one spawn , don,t know what the result from others spawns....
cheer .. happy new year .. coming year .

[Alex Lim]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

How many years would it take to pursue a hundred generations? my god... LOTS of time and effort has been used to at least get the current form. i think 2-3 generations is still needed to increase caudal size. but it's really impressive [col]
[bt] Not a hundred generations, a hundred spawns! You should be able to get one or two good butterflies from each spawn that carries the variegated gene.


Ooooppsss.. yet again [bt]:D let me edit the previous msg.

[Myron Tay]

The fella who thought of how to produce this fish is ingenious! My thoughts on what is at work on the colour layers to produce this fish (bred by Derrick Kuah):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/derrick%20kuah/DSC08949.JPG

Cambodian gene - To make the black layer colourless
Yellow layer obviously is already colourless (as with most domesticated bettas that we know of today).
Extended red - To get red on the red layer
Steel Blue, Spread Iridocytes and Opaque genes to get a faint opaque colour over on the blue layer (notice the milky effect on the body?)
Variegated gene - To get the butterfly effect

Brilliant!

[Sue Ridout]

Anyone know who first produced butterflies?

Myron, I think you're ingenious too to work out how the butterfly pattern is produced! Phew! No wonder they are so hard to produce and their numbers tend to be so small in each spawn.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Sue Ridout

Anyone know who first produced butterflies?Sue

That's an easy one - God. :D

The trait was probably first discovered in Thailand many decades ago. Not sure who first coined the term "butterfly" though. Maybe Todd could help us in this?

[Todd Knight]

As far as can tell (as Ia

[Myron Tay]

The sharing of information and effort it took to generate the information, is very much appreciated, Todd. [ber]

[derrick kuah]

HI Myron and Todd,
Liked to share what i nocticed so far with butterflies spawns.Normally even when the lines are "fixed".Will get at least 50%+ butterfly pattern, will always also get white coloured fishes and most are females. they are pastel (not opaque). I Think , pastel carried marble gene by itself cos pastel fishes are always with washes and others colours( theorically marbled).
I can confirmed , they are nr gene(yellow), opaque and irees gene,the extended gene from opaque.And i also think that the "butterfly" genes are different for both my lines (red/white and irees/white).But please don,t ask me on the technical"genes" terms , i hate to read them and i dont bother them . Only work with them and observe.Hope they are of help to those who intend to read somethings on them.
thanks and regards derrick++

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

HI Myron and Todd,
Liked to share what i nocticed so far with butterflies spawns.Normally even when the lines are "fixed".Will get at least 50%+ butterfly pattern, will always also get white coloured fishes and most are females. they are pastel (not opaque). I Think , pastel carried marble gene by itself cos pastel fishes are always with washes and others colours( theorically marbled).
I can confirmed , they are nr gene(yellow), opaque and irees gene,the extended gene from opaque.And i also think that the "butterfly" genes are different for both my lines (red/white and irees/white).But please don,t ask me on the technical"genes" terms , i hate to read them and i dont bother them . Only work with them and observe.Hope they are of help to those who intend to read somethings on them.
thanks and regards derrick++
Thanks, Derrick. I suspect that the difference between pastel and opaque is the difference in intensity. Much like the difference between intense reds and less intense reds. What do you think?

[Sue Ridout]

Good one, Myron!!!!!

Thanks everyone for answering my question.

[Todd Knight]

Here is a bit more info on the origin of the butterfly colour.
There is a lot of info on the Tutweiler butterfly, by a Mr Orville Tutweiler of Florida. It has been hailed as the first butterfly and was the reverse of todays colour pattern, its pattern was Cambodia- white-red.
But not much on Jay C Niel Who is given credit of starting the modern butterfly colour scheme.

An extract from this website: http://home.hiwaay.net/~keiper/bettastory.htm

Tutweiler founded the Tutweiler Butterfly, a Cambodian with fins divided between white and red, but this strain was never fixed. Jay C. Niel of Michigan founded the butterflies we have today. He managed to raise cambodian-red-white fry, thus giving birth to the butterfly bettas.

cheers
Todd