Purity of Red Colour

[Chris Yew]

I've come across some Ext. Red with blue streaks at the caudal fin especially near to the base. Why is it so? Will this blue streak fade off when the betta age? Or is it becoz somewhere up the line, it has been outcrossed with a blue?

Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

The JL line you re working is according to what i was told first done by goettner, probably by crossing Leng s line into his irids. It is not surprising to find fishes with more black and blue spots than Leng s line. Most ext red line show the blue in the corners of the anal/dorsal when young , some can fade off as they age. The original red line I had initially had all males showing this when young, but almost all loses it when they age and turn into 100% red.

Colour wise, leng s line is quite pure, but the finnage is horrible due to the crinkling, curling, folding.....which must b eliminated.

BTW , a recent pic post by Faith on her website showed Pat Ciccone's IBC winning red line.......mama mia!

[Chris Yew]

I'm not referring to JL line. But juz in general, some blue streak can be found at the caudal fin near the base. But in the first case, how these blue streaks come about? We have Red Loss, now 'Blue Loss', lol?

In fact, mine is Curtis line which the spawn now is 5.5 wks already and no blue streaks are seen so far. Very small spawn. See pic below;
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11949996.jpg

or http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?UV=55400163059_83675301503&US=0&collid=94074030503&photoid=65074030503

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11950016.jpg

or http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?UV=55400163059_83675301503&US=0&collid=94074030503&photoid=84574030503
Chris Yew




quote:
The JL line you re working is according to what i was told first done by goettner, probably by crossing Leng s line into his irids. It is not surprising to find fishes with more black and blue spots than Leng s line. Most ext red line show the blue in the corners of the anal/dorsal when young , some can fade off as they age. The original red line I had initially had all males showing this when young, but almost all loses it when they age and turn into 100% red.

Colour wise, leng s line is quite pure, but the finnage is horrible due to the crinkling, curling, folding.....which must b eliminated.

BTW , a recent pic post by Faith on her website showed Pat Ciccone's IBC winning red line.......mama mia!

[Samuel Phan]

The fries that I have from the Straits spawn also has got the blue streak.

At the same time it also have got some clear areas at the end of the finnage which is not found in the parents.

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

The clear area is a fault which must be eliminated.

[Samuel Phan]

understood ... but seems like most of the fries have that ... esp amongst the male.

Only managed to fin one male without the clear area.

quote:
The clear area is a fault which must be eliminated.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[imported_n/a]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to ask a question regarding the definition of "extended red Betta". I look at my red female, every part of the body is red in colour except for the black line delineating the edge of each scale on its body. For an extended red betta, do these lines have to be red in colour too?

Any response greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

[Foo Hong]

its probably ext red from what you described. Black scales are common, although good specimens should have little or non. However, if the scales thing is excessive to the extend that it forms a criss-cross, then it is not dersirable at all.

[Chris Yew]

You mean like the pic. below? Notice the blue streaks are the caudal too;

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11954490.jpg


Then that will be like yellow with the criss-cross black scale - called 'pineapple'?

Chris Yew


quote:
its probably ext red from what you described. Black scales are common, although good specimens should have little or non. However, if the scales thing is excessive to the extend that it forms a criss-cross, then it is not dersirable at all.

[Dr Hsu]

Read somewhere (forgotten where) that this effect is due to the differential rate of development of the pigment layer ie the red layer develops slower and thus cannot "catch-up" with the underlying dark base layer

Regards,

Li Chieh

"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

[Foo Hong]

Yep its the 'pineapple ' things lor. The blue streaks also is another annoyance.

These are clearly crossed to irids line some 5 or 6 generations ago. Ah san made a red x pinapple. ropy gave me one female to breed to a red. I ve lined them up all as tortise food. Only one female usable..<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Soif you wanna breed nice reds, never use a pineapple. use a red apple.

[Chris Yew]

So the blue streaks indicate that there might by a cross to some irids line 5 to 6 generations back. Notice that quite a number of Thais bettas have that in the Aquabid too.



quote:
Yep its the 'pineapple ' things lor. The blue streaks also is another annoyance.

These are clearly crossed to irids line some 5 or 6 generations ago. Ah san made a red x pinapple. ropy gave me one female to breed to a red. I ve lined them up all as tortise food. Only one female usable..<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Soif you wanna breed nice reds, never use a pineapple. use a red apple.




Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

The Thais are still struggling to get a pure red colour HM as far as I know. they hve been breeding the black/red bicolours to reds to improve form but in the process messed up the colour. Atison spawned over 70 pairs and still also struggling...ha!

That reminds me to check with one Thai whom I sold my red line to[aquarama line]. Not sure if he has any success. he also owns some yellows from Lewin.

[imported_n/a]

Foo Hong,

Thanks for the input. Glad to know that my Betta may be ext red.I call her a superred red! I wld like to take a nice shot of her and post. Chris, can I check with you how you got such a nice close-up shot? Just bought myself a 4 megapixel digicam but not sure how to get the darn thing working for good clear closeups. Tips anyone? I have the Sony P9.

Thanks again everyone.

[Myron Tay]

Marcus

I only have a P2, but I believe it is similar to the P9. Before shooting the pic, just click on the flower. That should give you a good macro shot. Hope to see your red soon. :)

quote:
Foo Hong,

Thanks for the input. Glad to know that my Betta may be ext red.I call her a superred red! I wld like to take a nice shot of her and post. Chris, can I check with you how you got such a nice close-up shot? Just bought myself a 4 megapixel digicam but not sure how to get the darn thing working for good clear closeups. Tips anyone? I have the Sony P9.

Thanks again everyone.

[imported_n/a]

Thanks, Myron

Took some shots as you have suggested. Wanted to post 2 pics here. But don't know how? Could you help me again with some instructions?ne?

Thanks again.

Marcus

[Chris Yew]

To attach a pic here is easy. First your pic must be hosted on some other website. Right click on the pic on that site and click properties below. Copy the url address as - http://.......jpg

In the forum here, click this icon between the email and # icon. It will shows on the forum page. Just paste your copied pic file in between as http://....jpg

Not all website allow you to attached pic on another site example geocities and Yahoo photo. Some online photo album have bandwidth limitation where if the number of times viewed by ppl exceeded, the pic will not show.

Chris Yew


quote:
Thanks, Myron

Took some shots as you have suggested. Wanted to post 2 pics here. But don't know how? Could you help me again with some instructions?ne?

Thanks again.

Marcus




Chris Yew

[imported_n/a]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the detailed instructions. Now I have to find out how to create a URL. I do not have a hosted website and not sure also how to create one.

But I sure appreciate your helping hand. Nice to know that you are into reds as well. Wish you success in your future spawns.

Marcus

[Foo Hong]

Which breeder does not own or have bred reds before. Its a striking colour if you get it clean and cleaniness does not come by easily in reds.

[Dr Hsu]

Me!:) Unless you consider the red offspring of 2 yellow pairings I did - not with the intention of getting reds!

quote:
Which breeder does not own or have bred reds before. Its a striking colour if you get it clean and cleaniness does not come by easily in reds.



Regards,

Li Chieh

"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

[Foo Hong]

Those would be cambodian reds?

Ialso got cambreds from a yellow x yellow.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

So you saying that we can never get Ext Red from a yellow spawn? Only Cambodian Reds?

Formula? Anyone?

quote:
Those would be cambodian reds?

Ialso got cambreds from a yellow x yellow.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Dr Hsu]

quote:
Those would be cambodian reds?


Actually not 100% sure what I got - still in the "grow-out" tank, which is more like a "cull tank" now. Only seen them from top view and looks like have cambodian all the way to full red (although I don't think extended red) most have some patchy color.



Regards,

Li Chieh

"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

[Foo Hong]

dont thk u get ext red from yellow/yellow. Can meh?

[Samuel Phan]

I dun think so too ...
quote:
dont thk u get ext red from yellow/yellow. Can meh?

[Foo Hong]

Actually most of the 'better' reds around in terms of form are derived from the american lines which have been bred into blues some time back. While the blue streaks and black scales are not really desirable, they are superior in form compared to say the good old leng lim types. Think its better to focus on fixing the form first using these lines to obtain the red HM and then worry abt the colour later.

[Myron Tay]

So you think it is easier to fix the form first before the colour (for extended reds)? Anyone else think otherwise?

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Actually most of the 'better' reds around in terms of form are derived from the american lines which have been bred into blues some time back. While the blue streaks and black scales are not really desirable, they are superior in form compared to say the good old leng lim types. Think its better to focus on fixing the form first using these lines to obtain the red HM and then worry abt the colour later.

[Myron Tay]

So you think it is easier to fix the form first before the colour (for extended reds)? Anyone else think otherwise?

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Actually most of the 'better' reds around in terms of form are derived from the american lines which have been bred into blues some time back. While the blue streaks and black scales are not really desirable, they are superior in form compared to say the good old leng lim types. Think its better to focus on fixing the form first using these lines to obtain the red HM and then worry abt the colour later.

[Myron Tay]

So, no one else doing extended reds out there? Hello?

[Myron Tay]

So, no one else doing extended reds out there? Hello?

[Chris Yew]

Will try again and coming soon. VEry soon.

[Chris Yew]

Will try again and coming soon. VEry soon.

[Myron Tay]

What's to work out in extended reds?

Straits - black edgings on fins, irridescence
Leng Lim - Crinkling edgings on fins
Thai - irridescence and black scales
Totoro - colour to bring to cherry red
Curtis - irridescence

Bottom line - there is still a lot of work to be done on the extended reds.

[Myron Tay]

What's to work out in extended reds?

Straits - black edgings on fins, irridescence
Leng Lim - Crinkling edgings on fins
Thai - irridescence and black scales
Totoro - colour to bring to cherry red
Curtis - irridescence

Bottom line - there is still a lot of work to be done on the extended reds.

[Foo Hong]

Why all foreign names?

Where is the
Myron red
FH red
Sam red
etc
etc

Ha!

[Foo Hong]

Why all foreign names?

Where is the
Myron red
FH red
Sam red
etc
etc

Ha!

[Myron Tay]

No breakthrough in the Myron reds yet. :D

[Myron Tay]

No breakthrough in the Myron reds yet. :D

[jonpoh]

Me... Doing reds for the past 1 year...!
But only F2 generation so far .... ..

regards
Jonathan Poh

[jonpoh]

Me... Doing reds for the past 1 year...!
But only F2 generation so far .... ..

regards
Jonathan Poh

[Foo Hong]

thats shit slow! u need u pump up the pace

[Foo Hong]

thats shit slow! u need u pump up the pace

[Myron Tay]

So what are you working on? Form? Colour? Both? Others?

quote:Originally posted by jonpoh

Me... Doing reds for the past 1 year...!
But only F2 generation so far .... ..

regards
Jonathan Poh

[Myron Tay]

So what are you working on? Form? Colour? Both? Others?

quote:Originally posted by jonpoh

Me... Doing reds for the past 1 year...!
But only F2 generation so far .... ..

regards
Jonathan Poh

[Myron Tay]

I am not much faster actually. After 1 year, I am only in F3 (although there is a lot of out-crossing in the meantime). :(

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

thats shit slow! u need u pump up the pace

[Myron Tay]

I am not much faster actually. After 1 year, I am only in F3 (although there is a lot of out-crossing in the meantime). :(

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

thats shit slow! u need u pump up the pace

[Sebas]

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

So you saying that we can never get Ext Red from a yellow spawn? Only Cambodian Reds?

Formula? Anyone?

quote:
Those would be cambodian reds?

Ialso got cambreds from a yellow x yellow.:D




will know soon, 3weeks old fries now, but i doubt there will be extended reds

[Sebas]

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

So you saying that we can never get Ext Red from a yellow spawn? Only Cambodian Reds?

Formula? Anyone?

quote:
Those would be cambodian reds?

Ialso got cambreds from a yellow x yellow.:D




will know soon, 3weeks old fries now, but i doubt there will be extended reds

[Myron Tay]

Has anyone got good extended reds from crosses with cambodians?

[Myron Tay]

Has anyone got good extended reds from crosses with cambodians?

[Myron Tay]

Here's a good example of a Thai red that we need to work on the irridescence:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/OverHM Red.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Here's a good example of a Thai red that we need to work on the irridescence:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/OverHM Red.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Here's an example of the Totoro Red which I feel needs work on the intensity of the colour:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/Totoro Red.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Here's an example of the Totoro Red which I feel needs work on the intensity of the colour:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/Totoro Red.jpg

[jonpoh]

totoro reds shouldn't be considered as extended reds.. I think.. cambodian red is a better term for it..
I breed for form, finnage and colour..
Finnage wise is pretty good... colour is intense and form wise.. So so lah... Not excellent..

[jonpoh]

totoro reds shouldn't be considered as extended reds.. I think.. cambodian red is a better term for it..
I breed for form, finnage and colour..
Finnage wise is pretty good... colour is intense and form wise.. So so lah... Not excellent..

[jonpoh]

actually.. the hard part for me is " space " and condition.. As some of you guys know.. I do not have the liberty of spaces in my house.. I must already be grateful that my parents have volunteer their bathroom for sole fish keeping purposes..
If I have the space of Foo Hong's... I wouldn't mind lah....hehee.

[jonpoh]

actually.. the hard part for me is " space " and condition.. As some of you guys know.. I do not have the liberty of spaces in my house.. I must already be grateful that my parents have volunteer their bathroom for sole fish keeping purposes..
If I have the space of Foo Hong's... I wouldn't mind lah....hehee.

[Myron Tay]

Jonathan

Mind posting some pictures of your extended red line on this forum so that we could admire?

[Myron Tay]

Jonathan

Mind posting some pictures of your extended red line on this forum so that we could admire?

[Foo Hong]

Heh this red no bad, whos is it?

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here's an example of the Totoro Red which I feel needs work on the intensity of the colour:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/Totoro Red.jpg

[Foo Hong]

Heh this red no bad, whos is it?

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here's an example of the Totoro Red which I feel needs work on the intensity of the colour:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron Tay/Totoro Red.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Took it from the Totoro website. Believe Nicole has something similar from Totoro.

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Heh this red no bad, whos is it?

[Myron Tay]

Took it from the Totoro website. Believe Nicole has something similar from Totoro.

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Heh this red no bad, whos is it?

[jonpoh]

ok...Here's one of the red male...

Not a good picture and didn't show full finnage..
" Dun blame it on the fish, blame it on the camera man."

[:p]

regards
Jonathan Poh

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Jonathan

Mind posting some pictures of your extended red line on this forum so that we could admire?


http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453144854_Jon Red.jpg

[jonpoh]

ok...Here's one of the red male...

Not a good picture and didn't show full finnage..
" Dun blame it on the fish, blame it on the camera man."

[:p]

regards
Jonathan Poh

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Jonathan

Mind posting some pictures of your extended red line on this forum so that we could admire?


http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453144854_Jon Red.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Good job. Needs work on the irrids on the body though.

[Myron Tay]

Good job. Needs work on the irrids on the body though.

[jonpoh]

hehee.. think so too... !! But hard lah.Anyway..as usual.. irids... only show up during photo taking.. For the real fish.. it doesn't quite show up...cause it is usually mask by the deep red..

anyway.. ..waiting for the next batch to grow up.. I think I see more irids... hahahaa!



quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Good job. Needs work on the irrids on the body though.

[jonpoh]

hehee.. think so too... !! But hard lah.Anyway..as usual.. irids... only show up during photo taking.. For the real fish.. it doesn't quite show up...cause it is usually mask by the deep red..

anyway.. ..waiting for the next batch to grow up.. I think I see more irids... hahahaa!



quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Good job. Needs work on the irrids on the body though.

[jonpoh]

Actually..the male is not the best of spawn.. Infact he is one that I never thought would progress.. Just jarred him for fun only.. The best of spawn was lost to a tubifex incident. That fish is cool ...! But no pics..!!

[jonpoh]

Actually..the male is not the best of spawn.. Infact he is one that I never thought would progress.. Just jarred him for fun only.. The best of spawn was lost to a tubifex incident. That fish is cool ...! But no pics..!!

[Foo Hong]

The tail is too long

[Foo Hong]

The tail is too long

[jonpoh]

I guess people nowadays have different perspectives on HMs.. The peter goettner's version and the Bonnie's version..
Peter prefer shorter finnage... while Bonnie prefer fish with large volume. I guess it is up to individual to choose which kind of ideal look they want.
I prefer those with larger volume.. and always do..
Shorter finnage theortically easier to maintain.. Fishes which are old will still have the ability to flare well.. But that doesn't mean large volume or longer tail can't carry it .. It is all up to the branching. Of course the tail length must be proportional to the body length..[:I]

regards


quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

The tail is too long

[Foo Hong]

Think when Goettner says short he just meant shorter than length of body.

[Myron Tay]

Ai yah. Different preferences again. I personally will adopt the IBC standards for the time being until we come up with our own. On based on those standards, I would say that this is the standard for reds (in terms of form) we should aspire to:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453144552_SawawutOverHM.jpg

What say the rest?

[Chris Yew]

I would say who bothers if it's a black cat or white cat, as long as it catches the mouse it's a good cat. Same who bothers if it's short or long caudal, if it's a good 180 deg or more, it's a good caudal. To me, it's important to achieve that 180 spread first. hehe.

[Myron Tay]

Yes, we should work on the 180 spread on a true extended red. Not the irridescent-filled Thai reds or the Cambodian-like Jap reds.

[Myron Tay]

The Thais are catching up already lah....we need to double our efforts. This I think is a vast improvement:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453144940_Thai Red.jpg

[Foo Hong]

They arent catching up. Thais have overtaken everyone, and are leading the way.

[Chris Yew]

We have much more to learn from the Thais instead!
[ek2]

[jonpoh]

Hahhaa.. I think they have really caught up.. and leading..
But not all of them... I guess it will be a group effort for us to improve the reds in Singapore.. We should not live by selfish means.. " if cannot share fish... then share information lah "..
Constructive criticism helps...



quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

We have much more to learn from the Thais instead!
[ek2]

[Myron Tay]

But even the Thai lines can be improved upon. The fish is not a HM since the fins are not sharp enough and the anal is not proportionate with the rest of the fins. The dorsal is something that can also be improved upon. And there is still irridescence.

But the brute force method of the Thais is something we do not have. So we have to be really selective. And we need to do it fast! Can we meet this Saturday at someone's house to compare reds? Foo Hong - your house available? If not, I can try to book my function room at my place (Pasir Ris - with shuttle bus from Tampines MRT). Rest can make it? It would be an informal gathering (extended reds only) sharing what we have and deciding what is best to pair with which fish. Propose we start early (12 noon?). Please post your reply on this forum. Response needed quickly.

[jonpoh]

Hi..
Mryon..

Will like to attend.... But this sat.. is not an idea day for me..
Got worship practise.. follow on by BS.
Furthermore I will need to prepare for my test on monday..
I will suggest somewhere near new year......Then.. I can also take Ang Bao from you guys... if not.. ang her~ ( red fish ).. also can..




quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

But even the Thai lines can be improved upon. The fish is not a HM since the fins are not sharp enough and the anal is not proportionate with the rest of the fins. The dorsal is something that can also be improved upon. And there is still irridescence.

But the brute force method of the Thais is something we do not have. So we have to be really selective. And we need to do it fast! Can we meet this Saturday at someone's house to compare reds? Foo Hong - your house available? If not, I can try to book my function room at my place (Pasir Ris - with shuttle bus from Tampines MRT). Rest can make it? It would be an informal gathering (extended reds only) sharing what we have and deciding what is best to pair with which fish. Propose we start early (12 noon?). Please post your reply on this forum. Response needed quickly.

[Foo Hong]

Think the cardinal red male is looking after a few miserable eggs myron. The half-totoro male is also in the breeding tank..messing with the girl. checking got egg or not tonite

so how? kekeke :D

[Samuel Phan]

If it is at Foo Hong's place at 12pm this Sat.
I might drop by ... but dun have any Reds to compare.

Only yellows ...

[Myron Tay]

I think Foo Hong also keen on yellows, so if his place is available and people indicate they are coming, why not? So let's discuss yellows and reds since they are so close to each other! But let's see the response how first...

Rest of the people, how? Dennis, you there?

[Samuel Phan]

I think Edwin/Maran will drop-by too ...

[Myron Tay]

Can help check if they are bringing yellows or reds?

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

I think Edwin/Maran will drop-by too ...

[Samuel Phan]

Have checked with Foo Hong ... he is ok with the idea of having it at his place.
12pm this Sat.

Foo Hong ... the time above will be tentative until you confirm further on the date/time through this thread.

[Samuel Phan]

I will check with them ... most likely yellows.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Can help check if they are bringing yellows or reds?

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

I think Edwin/Maran will drop-by too ...

[Myron Tay]

Looks more like a yellows gathering. Anyone bringing reds?

[Myron Tay]

Just to let everyone know that tomorrow's gathering has been cancelled due to unforseen circumstances. Thank you.

[jonpoh]

I was thinking for a very long time.... [?]
I was wondering whether it is really possible to have a true extended red that has the finnage of a irid line..
Genetically.. Phenotypically.. a true extended red have natural "weaker" fins than a irid line. ( Not sure whether it is scientifically proven or not ) I assume that the problem is due to the different pigments which forms up the "thickness" of the fins.. Hopefully.. I will be able to do a test on it... ( of course..in Life science.. everything you do.. must be of commerical value.. )
Sigh..
Anyway.. more next time.
[eb]
regards

[Myron Tay]

Jon

How do you explain this:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200454113135_Nic Red.jpg

[jonpoh]

That's a very nice fish.. I guess you have partially proven me wrong.[:I]
Perhaps it is really possible. Or else it might be like what Dr Gene Lucas proposed.. All bettas contain reds... and hence might be brought out by intensively crossing out extended reds to irid lines for a few generations. Of course.. I'm not sure and I dun think Americans do that often... But after all..we have the Thais.. So that fish might be brought out this way..


regards

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Jon

How do you explain this:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron%20Tay/200454113135_Nic%20Red.jpg

[Alvin Ho]

Just to jump in on the topic...

Presently, looking for reds (note: not ext. red) with decent'ish finnage is of no difficulty. From my previous experiences/findings, colour should supercede finnage as our top priority, as achieving a pure ext. red is 'more' difficult than getting the red HM in terms of the generations involved.

I think we should look at what we are presently doing with reds, and find out if it indeed leads us to our aim.

1)Many people I know are crossing reds to fish carrying the blonde gene (or already had)

*Do they actually know what they are trying to achieve in doing so, or are they simply following the crowd? From what I have ascertained from my communications with other breeders, is that this may in effect add to the deep well of problems we already have. If we were to spawn F2, there is a high probablity of more than half the spawn appearing either a) reduced red (esp. on bodies) or b) blonde fully expressed (not sure?..simply check the % of full ext reds appearing in such a spawn!).

Problems arise when it comes to selecting the subsequent pairings. Are we choosing fish with more blonde than necessary? Those who are more experienced MAY have an inkling of which fish carries what sort of genes...but for those who simply spawn for the purpose of following the crowd....gd luck... chances of getting a pure red are almost as good as getting a perfect cambodian!*

2) Crossing to irid lines

*Well...I think we should try to avoid this line of thinking for the moment.;) There are better and faster ways to improve finnage of the reds!*

Lots more to talk about reds.....but better not clog up this forum with my insanity[eb]

[Chris Yew]

That's interesting Alvin. Blond genes, lead me to think of those Chocolates derived from Yellow too.

[Chris Yew]

OK, this is what Jim Sonnier said about Blonde gene in his site;
BLONDE BETTAS have faded or washed out colors due to a mutant gene that has caused the Black pigment to be significantly reduced in density. The overall appearance of Blonde Bettas is thoroughly pale with a striking lack of color contrast. A Red Betta showing the Blonde mutation exhibits a bright Red color, rather than the usual dark "Cherry" Red. The mutated gene that causes the Blonde characteristic is also recessive to the normal black gene. Betta breeders have not shown much interest in the Blonde mutation for obvious reasons.

[Alvin Ho]

As Jim mentioned... the blonde gene tends to reduce the black intensity significantly on the fish. If you know how red and black are related.... the same goes for red, thus leading to the reduced red intensity on the bodies as I mentioned earlier (at least IMHO:D)

[Chris Yew]

Haha, reduce the black intensity but not eliminating it, right?

[Alvin Ho]

Well... the red acts as a base for the black. So those black edgeing you see on a red fish are from a red base, but where those spots have developed furthur (into black). If you reduce the black, the red goes too....!

[Foo Hong]

Chim ! Care to elaborate in Singlish ? :D

From my personal 'disasters', it is true that to maintain the cherry red colour, breeding the best coloured pair is a must [ I do teh same for whites]. Cos after all what u want is a red fish. However, much of those cherry reds seems to somehow los out in the Hm form. So the group taht is chasing after the 'red' Hm by outcrossing to whatever is probabaly not worng as well. But since we want then best of both colour n form, I would suggest those ext red freakozoids like Myron :D to work 2 lines - 1 to bring out the best colour, and another which is outcrossed from line 1 to a best HM in terms of finnage. Eventually probably need to back cross into line 1 again.....

No sciences, just thinking as it hits my mind. After all I failed my science subjects.....badly :D:D
quote:Originally posted by Alvin Ho

Well... the red acts as a base for the black. So those black edgeing you see on a red fish are from a red base, but where those spots have developed furthur (into black). If you reduce the black, the red goes too....!

[Alvin Ho]

Ya...that is true. But then again, not everyone lives in a house with a 16 ha garden, and can run 20 spawns at the same time;) So, a little bit of knowledge helps to save some time/space, esp. so for those of us living in HDB flats!

Of course the ideal case would be to spawn every single fish that grows up from a single spawn, with every single combination possible (male 1 /w female 1, 2, 3,... then male 2 /w female 1, 2, 3,... etc), and then...from alllllllllllllll of those spawns...do the same thing again .....muwahahaha...end result? might as well have a better life being fish food!

[jonpoh]

Alvin...
Glad to see u here.. I think you should explain the basics first.. before you go into depth understanding.. Or else some people might not be able to understand what you are trying to say.
To help out a bit... ( Hope I get this right. )
Bettas primary pigmentation consists of:
Xanothophores ( Yellow cells )
Erythrophores ( Red cells )
Melanophores ( Black cells )
Guanophores or iridocytes ( crystalline cells )

Ok.. The genetic facts that supports Alvin's statements:
Red cells overlay the yellow. Black cells are found overlaying the red and crystalline cells.

Hence, varying the amounts of black pigment cells, produce different intensity of reds..

regards.

[Foo Hong]

Still very chim!

[Myron Tay]

So just to clarify, what you would get once you get the blonde gene "fully expressed" is the Totoro red:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron%20Tay/Totoro%20Red.jpg

Am I right?

[Alvin Ho]

To (try to) answer your question, yes, I would think the totoro red as having the blonde gene.... as blonde serves to reduce the amount of dark pigment cells. A more often seen blonde fish would be one which has both blond and non-red.

It is true that by introducing the blonde gene, you will get a red that is so-called brighter, but you loose out on the intensity of the colour, and end up with a fish that has 2 different colour tones on body and fins.

My personal preference is for an ext. red to have body colour matching that of the fins. Same with irids, would you call a fish with light green body and dark green fins a pure turquoise betta, or would you rather seek a fish with an even colour throughout? If you take a look at the photo of the totoro red, I believe you can see a different shade of red from body compared to the fins (may be just my eyes!)

One thing of note maybe, is that the red colour starts developing slower than other colour pigments, and that they increase in density or get 'deeper' with age....as can be seen in cases where the fins grow much faster than the pigment can catch up with, producing many butterfly like fish, with black edging when they are young. Or in the case of reds where the colour darkens over time. Maybe we can try to improve the depth/intensity the red develops to, and not take a short-cut which might produce a clean red (clean of dark pigments), which might not be exactly what we are pursuing in achieving the ideal ext. red(?)

[Myron Tay]

Sounds like a sensible proposition. Thank you Alvin.

[Foo Hong]

I am falling for reds!

[Myron Tay]

Alvin

Could I hazard a guess that the reason why the colours on the fins and body of the fish with fully expressed blonde genes are different is because of the different thickness of fins and body?

[Alvin Ho]

I don't have any idea why they develop so myself. My guess would be that colour development on fins and body are different, as one applies to fins/webbing, while the other applies to scales and not webbing. Anyone with an idea willing to shed some light on this?

[kennho]

http://www.arofanatics.com/members/400k/babyextendedredstm/image03.jpg

Guys, is this extended red or mis-used of name ? To me, I know this is called a red butterfly, rite ? Since I started reading this red thread, still a bit blur on identification of a true extd red.

[Myron Tay]

Assuming that this is not a young fish, it is not an extended red. But if it is a young fish, it may be difficult to say. As mentioned before, the red takes time to catch up with fin growth in some cases. Having said that, it does seem that the red has a lot to catch up on and I would hazard a guess that it would probably never catch up and will remain a butterfly. Thanks.

[Myron Tay]

Here's something new for discussion. This is a cross between Sarawut's line and Totoro line (with blonde gene).

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453145312_Sarawut Red.jpg

If you look closely at the head, you would notice the blonde gene traits. However, there is no visible difference in colour between the fins and body. So we have a red with no black base (no black scales) and no visible difference in colour between the fins and body. This is obviously just a phenotype (since its siblings do not look like this), but does it represent an improvement and contradicts what Alvin mentioned? Comments?

[Alvin Ho]

Interesting question...

In my opinion, the lack of colouration on the head may come from a slow development or lack of the red pigment in that area, rather than attributing any sign of red loss/erosion to the blonde gene. In other words, it is a perfectly normal betta showing red. In that case, it would explain why the fins and body carry the same density of red pigment.

Seems like this fish has had one or more irid lines crossed into its genetic pool. Same with irids., black is usually not present on the scales....so therefore we see a lack of black on this red based fish.

Still...to choose between irid or black to show up on an ext. red is a tough choice ....I prefer none :D

[Foo Hong]

and it looks like a CT geno.....hate those ray extensions..kekekekke

Blonde...oi? If you cross camb red or yellow to ext red, which are without black scales ...is that in theory blonde genes? keke

[Alvin Ho]

erm....could be the non-red genes ...[8D]

[Myron Tay]

Unfortunately, there were three spawns placed together. So actually don't know how the siblings look like. Also, it seems that he could not tell whether it was a Totoro line cross with his or his own line! (Although I suspect it is a cross due to the lack of colouration in the head) Sigh! That's the problem with these Thai breeders!

[Foo Hong]

This is the simplest question. WHy is blonde not same as cambodian.,,as far as red is concern.

Pls spk English hor...kekekeke

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Ho

erm....could be the non-red genes ...[8D]

[Alvin Ho]

hmm, in 3nglish ....kekeke...

A true cambodian betta would be a flesh coloured body fish with any single coloured fins (ie. red, blue etc) The body in essence lacks any colour pigment. This is different from an originally red fish with non-red genes or blonde genes, as there are pigments on the body, regardless of whatever colour is predominant/showing.

I think there is a misconception that (for instance the red cambodian), any fish with red fins and a light coloured body is classified as a cambodian. This is inclusive of blonde, yellow or pale red bodies.

just my .2 cents...

[Foo Hong]

dont understand.

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Ho

hmm, in 3nglish ....kekeke...
I think there is a misconception that (for instance the red cambodian), any fish with red fins and a light coloured body is classified as a cambodian. This is inclusive of blonde, yellow or pale red bodies.


Alvin, so what's the actual definition of a red cambodian ?

[Alvin Ho]

simply put, what we were *taught* last time was that (red) cambodian would be a fish with distinct red fins and a body that is flesh coloured, ie. no colour pigments of any kind on the body...

Maybe someone else who deals with cambodians can give another view?

[Dr Hsu]

Alvin is correct about the use of the term "cambodian". The traditional Cambodian is a flesh colored fish with colored fins. Nowadays the term has been misused to represent light bodied fish even if they have color on the body.

Anyway, you can ask Dr Gene Lucas about this one when he gives a talk to the BCS when he's here. Judging by the amount of questions regarding reds, this will be one of the areas I will ask him to address!

[Foo Hong]

I think he will faint once he starts taking questions!

[Myron Tay]

Alvin

It does look that you are right! Some in my red spawn is showing the horizontal black band that disappear as the fish matures, which is characteristic of many blue strains? Very interesting...

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Ho


Seems like this fish has had one or more irid lines crossed into its genetic pool. Same with irids., black is usually not present on the scales....so therefore we see a lack of black on this red based fish.

[Myron Tay]

Alvin

It does look that you are right! Some in my red spawn is showing the horizontal black band that disappear as the fish matures, which is characteristic of many blue strains? Very interesting...

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Ho


Seems like this fish has had one or more irid lines crossed into its genetic pool. Same with irids., black is usually not present on the scales....so therefore we see a lack of black on this red based fish.

[Victor Chan]

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

dont thk u get ext red from yellow/yellow. Can meh?




Still possible. If the male and female carries nr1 or nr2 each

[Foo Hong]

So what is this nr1 nr2 then

[jonpoh]

nr1=yellow
nr2=orange
nr means non-red

[Foo Hong]

So nr1 x nr2 = nr3? kekekeke

how to get red da? nr1nr2 = red? or nr2nr1 = pink?

[Myron Tay]

Here's the fish by Chok Pengdit's prize winning fish that Foo Hong and I were commenting on in a separate thread:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/20045315647_DT Male.jpg

The form is in my opinion quite fantastic. The colour looks quite pure, but as with many lines from the Thais, there is still quite some irridiscence. There is also the black scales that Foo Hong hates.

[Myron Tay]

Examining the Totoro red again, I am convinced that the lack of black scales is the result of a cambodian gene that blocks any formation of black pigment on the body (notice the fully black eye):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron%20Tay/Totoro%20Red.jpg

Sarawut, when he first got Totoro's reds, has managed to produce a fish (pheno) that seems to have inherited the good attributes of cambodian gene (remove black) but mitigate the less desirable effect of reducing red pigment on the body with this fish (although some of the cambo gene has resulted in a loss of red pigment in the head):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453145312_Sarawut Red.jpg

I believe that this is just a pheno as the results of the rest of the fish coming from SarawutX Totoro crossing is showing more and more signs of the manifestations of the cambodian gene on the body of the fish.

What do you think Alvin? While I accept that there might have been a cross some time back in Sarawut's line that reds was crossed to an irids line, I do not think that the spread on his fish is a result of the spread iriodytes gene. His original line of fish had red all over including the head (although dotted with irids).

[Myron Tay]

This came up as I was re-reading this thread. Did Jim confuse the effects of the cambodian gene with the blonde gene? I think what he describe below seems to be the effect of the cambodian gene in normal reds rather than the blonde gene. What do the rest think?

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

OK, this is what Jim Sonnier said about Blonde gene in his site;
BLONDE BETTAS have faded or washed out colors due to a mutant gene that has caused the Black pigment to be significantly reduced in density. The overall appearance of Blonde Bettas is thoroughly pale with a striking lack of color contrast. A Red Betta showing the Blonde mutation exhibits a bright Red color, rather than the usual dark "Cherry" Red. The mutated gene that causes the Blonde characteristic is also recessive to the normal black gene. Betta breeders have not shown much interest in the Blonde mutation for obvious reasons.

[Myron Tay]

But based on this thinking, if we have produced intense yellows (nr) by eliminating the red overlay, can't we produce intense reds by eliminating the black overlay?

I had thought that the black was the result of red not growing fast enough to cover the fin. So it is a case of red overlaying the black rather than the other way round?

I suspect that the different pigments (overlaying or underlaying) act independently from each other. Here's the red loss fish to support my case:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron%20Tay/Red%20Loss%20Betta%20Side%20View.jpg

This was a red fish, until it experienced red loss. Don't think the red loss has affected the intensity of black on this fish. What do the rest think?

quote:Originally posted by jonpoh

Alvin...
Glad to see u here.. I think you should explain the basics first.. before you go into depth understanding.. Or else some people might not be able to understand what you are trying to say.
To help out a bit... ( Hope I get this right. )
Bettas primary pigmentation consists of:
Xanothophores ( Yellow cells )
Erythrophores ( Red cells )
Melanophores ( Black cells )
Guanophores or iridocytes ( crystalline cells )

Ok.. The genetic facts that supports Alvin's statements:
Red cells overlay the yellow. Black cells are found overlaying the red and crystalline cells.

Hence, varying the amounts of black pigment cells, produce different intensity of reds..

regards.

[Kelvin Tan]

hmm wondering my pair of ext red is pure enough..... hope so. really like the red coloration

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif Img_4922.jpg (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/kelvin tan/20036170311_Img_4922.jpg)
43.76KB

[Myron Tay]

Maybe you should post this in the Betta Appraisal Corner to get views from everyone? Thanks.

[Kelvin Tan]

oh since you guys talking about red, just to share the red which i have, its coloration.

[Myron Tay]

The intensity of the red in the pair is very good (shows a lot of work has been done on preserving the intensity of the colour), with minimal irids on the male and don't see any on the female (which is not that unusual). You would need to work on reducing the amount of black in the subsequent spawn (something which I am also working on), because both seem to exhibit quite a bit of that on the body.

[Kelvin Tan]

thanks for comments.....line from nichol

[Myron Tay]

Keep us posted about the spawn.

[Phil]

Hi Myron, here is my 2Cents about Red. I have noted that those with deep red color, usually carries Blue/black irids. When you do dilute them with those with Cambos, you tend to get extended red. The dilution results in greenish irids surfacing. Yellow also tends to have greenish irids, but some of these are hidden. I doubt that you can completely remove the irids. Hidng them is a better possibility but with age some of these irids tend to surface. Don't really know if color feeding can keep them hidden, as I have never tried it.

[Myron Tay]

Hi Phil

When you propose hiding the irids and black on the reds, you mean that we should breed bettas that have red pigment that covers the black and irids pigments?

Assuming this is what you mean, my view is that it is certainly possible with the black (as seen from my red loss fish above. It was certainly more red than black before it loss its red colouration!). Will try to observe whether it happens for the irids pigment as I continue the line. Thanks for the suggestion.

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

Hi Myron, here is my 2Cents about Red. I have noted that those with deep red color, usually carries Blue/black irids. When you do dilute them with those with Cambos, you tend to get extended red. The dilution results in greenish irids surfacing. Yellow also tends to have greenish irids, but some of these are hidden. I doubt that you can completely remove the irids. Hidng them is a better possibility but with age some of these irids tend to surface. Don't really know if color feeding can keep them hidden, as I have never tried it.

[Phil]

Bulls eye! Yes that is what I meant. cheers

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Hi Phil

When you propose hiding the irids and black on the reds, you mean that we should breed bettas that have red pigment that covers the black and irids pigments?

Assuming this is what you mean, my view is that it is certainly possible with the black (as seen from my red loss fish above. It was certainly more red than black before it loss its red colouration!). Will try to observe whether it happens for the irids pigment as I continue the line. Thanks for the suggestion.

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

Hi Myron, here is my 2Cents about Red. I have noted that those with deep red color, usually carries Blue/black irids. When you do dilute them with those with Cambos, you tend to get extended red. The dilution results in greenish irids surfacing. Yellow also tends to have greenish irids, but some of these are hidden. I doubt that you can completely remove the irids. Hidng them is a better possibility but with age some of these irids tend to surface. Don't really know if color feeding can keep them hidden, as I have never tried it.

[Myron Tay]

So here's the genetics to get a pure solid red:

Extended red (Er) - Multi-factoral trait, all of which would have to be present to get the spread of red all over the fish
Blonde (b) - Reduce the amount of black. This is a single gene that follows the simple Mendalian laws but very difficult to detect and maintain
Absence of Variegated Fins - Multifactorial trait
Absence of irridescence - Multifactorial trait

And if you want a halfmoon, you would have to throw in the multifactoral trait that is the halfmoon.

Add these all up, and what you get is a BIG headache as well as a BIG challenge in perfecting the red colour.

[Charles Lim]

Hi Myron

I thought variegated fins is determined by a single gene? Sorry if I sound silly cos I don't have any genetics background so might misunderstand the word "multifactorial".

Cheers

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Charles Lim

Hi Myron

I thought variegated fins is determined by a single gene? Sorry if I sound silly cos I don't have any genetics background so might misunderstand the word "multifactorial".

Cheers
Nope. Hence, the difficulty of "fixing" butterflies.

[Charles Lim]

"Fixing" butterflies is a little different from identifying a betta with variegated fins? The IDEAL butterfly is a 50%-50% divide in the fins, so I imagine that what you are saying is "fixing" this 50%-50% divide?

Based on what I recall reading, variegated fins is determined by a single gene denoted by (Vf)? Am I misreading some of these articles?

Thanks

[Myron Tay]

Charles

The question we have to ask is this: Do you expect to get the same amount of variegation on offsprings of perfect butterflies? If it is so, then it is a single gene. My point is that there are so few perfect butterflies around is evidence that it is not such a simple relationship.

It is a multifactoral trait, possibly caused by several genes much like the extended red gene. Will use the extended red gene as an example (given this is an extended red thread). Suppose that the fully extended red betta is a result of the "switching" on of three genes, of which being switched on is denoted as a capital "R" and being switched off is denoted as "r", an extended red cross would give raise to a spectrum of extended reds, consisting of:

RRR (most spread of reds)
RRr
rRR
RrR
Rrr
rRr
rrR
rrr (least spread of reds)

[Charles Lim]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Charles

The question we have to ask is this: Do you expect to get the same amount of variegation on offsprings of perfect butterflies? If it is so, then it is a single gene. My point is that there are so few perfect butterflies around is evidence that it is not such a simple relationship.

It is a multifactoral trait, possibly caused by several genes much like the extended red gene. Will use the extended red gene as an example (given this is an extended red thread). Suppose that the fully extended red betta is a result of the "switching" on of three genes, of which being switched on is denoted as a capital "R" and being switched off is denoted as "r", an extended red cross would give raise to a spectrum of extended reds, consisting of:

RRR (most spread of reds)
RRr
rRR
RrR
Rrr
rRr
rrR
rrr (least spread of reds)


Hi Myron

Not that I am disputing your assertions, but it's because I don't know any better. [bh][bh]

Just to throw an alternative view (but without any scientific basis), purely for the purposes of discussion. Can the so-called extended red betta be the result of certain missing genes hence it is fully red? What I am trying to say is that a normal or reduced red could be due to the presence of certain other genes which is causing the reduction (somewhat like a reduced red gene but only partial effects). The removal of this set of genes causes the redness of the betta to its current max, i.e. named "extended" red.

For variegated fin bettas, again the presence of certain other genes that is driving the effects of where the borders of the colors are on the fins, and not because of the fact that Vf is a multifactorial trait. Like I mentioned, this is just a wild guess, and is purely meant to pose questions on certain assumptions that you hold for the sake of discussion.[be][be]

Hope you don't mind. [bx]

[Myron Tay]

Charles

Your presumption is entirely feasible. I guess only God knows.

The basic premise of where I am coming from is that the "wild" betta is the default state and hence "normal" state. Any deviation from that is deemed to be "abnormal" and the result of a modification or presence of gene or genes. For a definition of the "wild" betta as per Dr Lucas' observation, I would refer you to the following thread:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1500

Hence, in the case of red, the "normal" state is a state in which the betta has dashes of red here and there, which is quite common in truly wild bettas.

[Myron Tay]

Thinking this through, Charles, the basic premise is the same: there are multifactoral traits involved. So if your hypothesis is right, the pattern would be merely reversed:

RRR (least spread of reds)
RRr
rRR
RrR
Rrr
rRr
rrR
rrr (most spread of reds)

[sylwester]

According to lucas Er has an dominant behaviour that would make Myrons example more correct i guess.
RRR (most spread of reds)
rrr (least spread of reds)

If they were on the same chromosones and they were many more.. like a 100 genes and subject to recomibation an totally homogeneous extended red and a wild type would yield hetrogeneous on all locus.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++...

When an egg or sperm-cell gets created the two chromosone braches would exchange elleles making two eggs like this.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++ +++++...

Where they brake is random but the chances of them breaking between two locus is depending on physical distance on the chromosone. There are then two compliment eggs in each spawn. Another random pair of sperm might brake on different points...

RR+++++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRR R++++...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

Now consider taking one egg and one sperm-cell... to make one fish in the spawn.

RRRRRRRR+++++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++++++RRRR RRRRR...
++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++RRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++++++ +RRRR...

some points are homogeneous but others are heterogeneous. By random selection you would expect that some of the dominant Er locus is lost to wild-type and the only way to get it back is an out-cross. The hetrogeneous can be selected to reach homogeneous Er.. and look something like this:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR++++++RRRR RRRRR...

Just a thought though.

[Myron Tay]

Interesting thought, Sylwester. I think that is how it works. So it is important to outcross to ensure you get those missing "R"s.

[sylwester]

I think all the traits that are not proven single gene are simular to this.

If a trait requires two genes which are on the same chromosone and they are very close to each other they will act almost like as one standard mendelian gene as both would in most cases be inherited as a pair of alleles, however, a few fish in the spawn would not fit in the punnet square.

[Myron Tay]

Don't adjust your monitors. This is the real thing, not photoshop edited (picture is taken by me on my own digital camera) at the 4th NBC. The fish does have some very slight irridescence on the fins. Other than that, the colour is perfect.

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200412251882_Red Plakat 2.JPG

Will be working to get this colour in my halfmoons.

[Myron Tay]

Don't adjust your monitors. This is the real thing, not photoshop edited (picture is taken by me on my own digital camera) at the 4th NBC. The fish does have some very slight irridescence on the fins. Other than that, the colour is perfect.

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200412251882_Red Plakat 2.JPG

Will be working to get this colour in my halfmoons.

[Kevin Tan]

Wah ****! My eyes pain ah!! ... Neeeeeed tttttoooo adddjust monitor..

Geez, the red is making me aggitated now. [xx(]

[Kevin Tan]

Wah ****! My eyes pain ah!! ... Neeeeeed tttttoooo adddjust monitor..

Geez, the red is making me aggitated now. [xx(]

[Jodi Lea]

[col] Wow, awesome colour! Is this one related to the $1000US Red Plakats that were mentioned on another thread?

Need your sunnies to look at this beauty!

Cheers, J[8D][8D][8D]

[Jodi Lea]

[col] Wow, awesome colour! Is this one related to the $1000US Red Plakats that were mentioned on another thread?

Need your sunnies to look at this beauty!

Cheers, J[8D][8D][8D]

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Jodi Lea

[col] Wow, awesome colour! Is this one related to the $1000US Red Plakats that were mentioned on another thread?

Need your sunnies to look at this beauty!

Cheers, J[8D][8D][8D]
Jodi

I suspect that it is linked to the rumours of pure red plakats that I have heard so much about. It is certainly breath-taking to behold one in person.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Jodi Lea

[col] Wow, awesome colour! Is this one related to the $1000US Red Plakats that were mentioned on another thread?

Need your sunnies to look at this beauty!

Cheers, J[8D][8D][8D]
Jodi

I suspect that it is linked to the rumours of pure red plakats that I have heard so much about. It is certainly breath-taking to behold one in person.

[Alex Lim]

pics can only vouch for finnage.. it's altogether a different thing where colour comes into play.

[Alex Lim]

pics can only vouch for finnage.. it's altogether a different thing where colour comes into play.