Ray Branching or Splitting

[Chris Yew]

Very often when we talked about HM, we tend to relate it to the numbers of ray branching or splitting that the betta will have. So for a betta to be a true HM, one of the most important criteria is to have as many branching as possible (i.e. 4 and above).

But can I say that a betta have 4 and above ray branching may not necessary be a true HM, if the other criterias do not meet, eg. the outer edge of caudal is not straight?

The other question I have is;
If a pair of bettas has onli secondary split (2 rays branching), when we keep on in-breeding or line-breeding them, will the number of rays be increased? Or once the both the parents are with secondary split, all their fries will be secondary split forever?

Maybe we can also say that if we will to spawn a pair with both parents having 4 rays branching, will all the fries be having the same 4 rays branching or some may have and some may not have or simply by luck?

Any comments?


Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

First of all I think we need to clarify and sing from the same score sheet.

Rays/splits count - the first one sticking out from the caudal peduncle is the primary ray . it splits into 2 and form a 'Y'. To me, this is a primary split, and the next 2 rays in this 'Y' are secondary rays.

And it goes on, forms secondary splits/tertiary rays and tertiary split/quad rays and so on.

I notice different HM have different degree of ray presentation and it does not necessary mean that a good HM must have 1-to-16 rays although a minimum of 8 rays is desired. 4 rays fishes can breed into 8rays offsprings through careful selection. Rays are not the factors only to consider for HM selection:- others include;
outtest edge of caudal, space btw the primary rays, number of primary rays, distance in the splits, size of tail relative to ray presentation, etc.

In some fishes, it does not follow the 1/2/4/8/16 rays splitting rule. Some times I get fishes that show 1/2/5/10/etc. These are IMO desirable for breeding as it seems to show that he has strong genetic makeup for ray presentation. These trait appears to be prominant in lines derived from Richard Yu[Bonnie Mckinley].

[Samuel Phan]

So does everyone agree that
Primary Ray will give Secondary Splits?
Seconday Ray will give Tertiary Splits?
Tertiary Ray will give Quart Splits?

I have seen fishes with only Primary Rays i.e. Secondary Splits that are able to hold his HM finnage ... but with difficulty.

Can we also assume that the earlier the spilts occue ... the better?

Can the ray splits be passed-on to the next generation?
i.e. Both parents Tertiary Ray will give majority of the off-springs with the same splits?

quote:
First of all I think we need to clarify and sing from the same score sheet.

Rays/splits count - the first one sticking out from the caudal peduncle is the primary ray . it splits into 2 and form a 'Y'. To me, this is a primary split, and the next 2 rays in this 'Y' are secondary rays.

And it goes on, forms secondary splits/tertiary rays and tertiary split/quad rays and so on.

I notice different HM have different degree of ray presentation and it does not necessary mean that a good HM must have 1-to-16 rays although a minimum of 8 rays is desired. 4 rays fishes can breed into 8rays offsprings through careful selection. Rays are not the factors only to consider for HM selection:- others include;
outtest edge of caudal, space btw the primary rays, number of primary rays, distance in the splits, size of tail relative to ray presentation, etc.

In some fishes, it does not follow the 1/2/4/8/16 rays splitting rule. Some times I get fishes that show 1/2/5/10/etc. These are IMO desirable for breeding as it seems to show that he has strong genetic makeup for ray presentation. These trait appears to be prominant in lines derived from Richard Yu[Bonnie Mckinley].




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Myron Tay]

I thought Foo Hong meant:

Split in Primary Ray = Primary Split (to get Secondary Rays)
Split in Secondary Ray = Secondary Split (to get Tertiary Rays)
And so on.

quote:
So does everyone agree that
Primary Ray will give Secondary Splits?
Seconday Ray will give Tertiary Splits?
Tertiary Ray will give Quart Splits?

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Chris Yew]

OK, let's clarify further on the rays splits issue first ;

Can I say that when it has secondary rays - it means 4 rays
and secondary splits - means 8 rays?

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11930441.jpg


quote:
First of all I think we need to clarify and sing from the same score sheet.

Rays/splits count - the first one sticking out from the caudal peduncle is the primary ray . it splits into 2 and form a 'Y'. To me, this is a primary split, and the next 2 rays in this 'Y' are secondary rays.

And it goes on, forms secondary splits/tertiary rays and tertiary split/quad rays and so on.

[Foo Hong]

No No No

The first ray growing from the body = PR
PR splits into 2 SR, the point of splitting = PS
If you like it in order its like : PR,PS,2 SR, 2 SP, 4 TR, 4TS, 16 QR, n so on.

Anyway this is how I think.. not sure if internationally agreed?

[Myron Tay]

Agree. This is what I would support as well. A split does not equal a ray. It is just a split. So in Chris terms, assuming each ray only splits into two, it would be

Primary Ray = 1
Secondary Rays = 2
Tertiary Rays = 4
Quad Rays = 8

quote:
No No No

The first ray growing from the body = PR
PR splits into 2 SR, the point of splitting = PS
If you like it in order its like : PR,PS,2 SR, 2 SP, 4 TR, 4TS, 16 QR, n so on.

Anyway this is how I think.. not sure if internationally agreed?

[Chris Yew]

Wait Foo Hong, I think after the 4TR, 4TS, should be 8TR, 8TS is goes by your method. Is it right? See below pic;

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11930446.jpg

Chris Yew




quote:
No No No

The first ray growing from the body = PR
PR splits into 2 SR, the point of splitting = PS
If you like it in order its like : PR,PS,2 SR, 2 SP, 4 TR, 4TS, 16 QR, n so on.

Anyway this is how I think.. not sure if internationally agreed?

[Foo Hong]

Ops yes I meant 8 QR, not 16 QR. I dont what therm to apply for 16 or more.....Masters or PhD?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

So Guys ...

If we are agree-able on what Chris have posted ... then to make things simple ...

At the outermost of the caudal, if one primary ray:
- splits to 2 i.e Secondary rays
- splits to 4 i.e Tertiary rays
- splits to 8 i.e Quartenary rays

Am I correct?


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Chris Yew]

Corrections - should be what Foo Hong has said and what Chris have illustrated with pictures, LOL! I myself are confused with all the rays and splits!!!!

Chris Yew


quote:
So Guys ...

If we are agree-able on what Chris have posted ... then to make things simple ...

At the outermost of the caudal, if one primary ray:
- splits to 2 i.e Secondary rays
- splits to 4 i.e Tertiary rays
- splits to 8 i.e Quartenary rays

Am I correct?


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Spot on guys. Thats what I used for reference.

[Myron Tay]

How about this?

Any ray extension connected to the body on any of the fins of the fish shall be deemed a primary ray. Any ray arising from a split of a primary ray shall be deemed a secondary ray. Any ray arising from a split in a secondary ray shall be deemed a tertiary ray. Any ray arising from a split in a tertiary shall be deemed a quartenary ray.

Personally, Chris' pic best captures what I propose we adopt.

quote:
So Guys ...

If we are agree-able on what Chris have posted ... then to make things simple ...

At the outermost of the caudal, if one primary ray:
- splits to 2 i.e Secondary rays
- splits to 4 i.e Tertiary rays
- splits to 8 i.e Quartenary rays

Am I correct?


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Now we are all singing the betta national anthem from the same sheet <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Chris Yew]

OK, so much on the rays and split and now let's get back to the main point of the question;

Foo Hong, you mentioned that 4 rays fishes can breed into 8 rays offsprings through careful selection. Can I take it as a delta having only 2 rays can also breed into 4 rays, 8 rays offsprings through careful selection and in breeding?

If both parents do not have their outer most ray straight or bending outwards, will further in breeding or line breeding helps?

Chris Yew


quote:
I notice different HM have different degree of ray presentation and it does not necessary mean that a good HM must have 1-to-16 rays although a minimum of 8 rays is desired. 4 rays fishes can breed into 8rays offsprings through careful selection.

[Foo Hong]

Haha if I know all these answers then I can patent right the breeding formula already.

OK let me try[ all these just based onb my personal experience only ]

Plakats &gt; veils &gt; deltas &gt; HM.

Yes I think deltas can be worked into HMs...matter of how long it takes and how careful yr each generation of breeding is so that you cull out all the unwanted genes and keep the traits that you want.

Can 2 ray &gt; 4 ray and 4 become 8 ray. I think so too. Well how else did the 1st HM comeabout? But normally for such mutation to take place, the first such spawn will only produce a few[sometimes only 1] fish. Which is why when working a line upwards, you have to spawn massively....like the Thais.

Same arguement I guess for the outtest edge of the caudal.

The reason why I generally prefer to get US lines to work from is that those breeders there spend an awful lot of time to work on only a few if not just 1 colour. Hence their lines are very 'pure' [ see the previous IBC buttelin written by Joe Buss[spelling?]. EG, People like Richard Yu who acquired Bonnie Mckinley lines. These lines have been bred for so many generations passing on from one person to the next one. Many unwanted genes have been lost, leaving the desired traits in the line. The line is very 'pure', and spawns do not throw out many 'outlyers'. For eg, I noticed that whenever I use a fish that is derived from Richard's line to cross over to some other fish, the results are usually pretty good, at least for F1. Unlike some I tried from other lines. Dickson and I once spawned Richard's IBC winner with a goettner female. Almost 40% of the spawn have caudals at least 150 deg.... and the worse was 120 deg and a few 90 deltas. There were no veils. and colour were very even and intense and clean. Of cos some were not proportionate in terms of body to fin size. But it just goes to show the quality of the line. I am sure many of you have experienced buying 2 fishes from diff source and they look nice, but when you cross them you get random results.

Working a good line is IMO not easy. if you screw up in one generation, you not only lose time, but may also take 2 steps back instead of going 1 step forward.

Did you guys see the tank of opaque white fries I brought to the AGM? Thats 4 generations away from a Lewin/goettner pairing. I ll take some pics on try to post them here. A few males look very good at this stage. They have 2 rays split on the dorsal n anal and are only 1 to 1.25 inch in body length exlcuding tail.

oops sorry for the longgggggggg reply.

[Chris Yew]

OK here's a real picture of Rays and Splits! Taken from the spawn of my delta x CT;

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11930304.jpg

Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

A pic speaks a thousand words. Only Chris Yew can do this!

[Samuel Phan]

Any idea what's after a Quart split?
i.e 16 rays?

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Myron Tay]

Quinary, senary, septenary, octonary, nonary and denary. Words also exist for `twelfth order' (duodenary) and `twentieth order' (vigenary).

quote:
Any idea what's after a Quart split?
i.e 16 rays?

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Myron,

Where on earth did you managed to find those words!!!

16 rays = Quinary
32 rays = Senary
64 rays = Septenary
128 rays = Octanary ...


HELP!!! I am going crazy!!!!

Anyway ... 16 rays is about the maximum that I have heard so far ... so shall stick to priimary, secondary, tertiary, quartenary, quinary. Full-stop.

quote:
Quinary, senary, septenary, octonary, nonary and denary. Words also exist for `twelfth order' (duodenary) and `twentieth order' (vigenary).

quote:
Any idea what's after a Quart split?
i.e 16 rays?

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)





Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Chris Yew]

Hah, my primary 2 son taught me that too;
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/60405.html

Chris Yew


quote:
Hi Myron,

Where on earth did you managed to find those words!!!

16 rays = Quinary
32 rays = Senary
64 rays = Septenary
128 rays = Octanary ...


HELP!!! I am going crazy!!!!

Anyway ... 16 rays is about the maximum that I have heard so far ... so shall stick to priimary, secondary, tertiary, quartenary, quinary. Full-stop.

quote:
Quinary, senary, septenary, octonary, nonary and denary. Words also exist for `twelfth order' (duodenary) and `twentieth order' (vigenary).

quote:
Any idea what's after a Quart split?
i.e 16 rays?

Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)





Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

8 or 16 will do. Too many spolis the soup.

[Samuel Phan]

agree ...

quote:
8 or 16 will do. Too many spolis the soup.


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Myron Tay]

Dr Gene Lucas in the Mar 2003 edition of the FAMA magazine has used the word 'branches" instead. So what we refer to as a fish with primary and secondary rays, he refers to as a fish with single branching. A fish with primary, secondary and tertiary rays, he refers to a fish with secondary branching. So the fish pictured would be one with tertiary branching.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

OK here's a real picture of Rays and Splits! Taken from the spawn of my delta x CT;

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL125/640119/1026943/11930304.jpg

Chris Yew

[Markus Gutzeit]

hello all,

here is a pic out of a book from Rajiv(only in German) and we use the words Quartenary branching and what I see in the internet what the people
tell for this is "16ray". Hope I could help a little in this interessting discussion.

Greetings,
Markus

http://photo.starblvd.net/~halfmoonbetta/2-4-4.jpg?i=1057504601&pw=*1F233EEB4F1E

[Myron Tay]

Rajiv's version seems to deviate from Dr Lucas' and our understanding here in BCS. Any views on which one we should adopt?

[Markus Gutzeit]

Hello,

small mistake. Quartenary branching means 8ray. I called Rajiv today an he told me when he find some time he will write a short article about this topic.

Greetings,
Markus

[willieneo]

Wow, when I first started reading this thread, I get confused.[dr] But now have a better understanding of what branching/rays, etc is all about. [dt]

[Myron Tay]

Good to let us know, Willie.

This is part of what this forum is about. Cheers!

quote:Originally posted by willieneo

Wow, when I first started reading this thread, I get confused.[dr] But now have a better understanding of what branching/rays, etc is all about. [dt]

[Myron Tay]

Good to let us know, Willie.

This is part of what this forum is about. Cheers!

quote:Originally posted by willieneo

Wow, when I first started reading this thread, I get confused.[dr] But now have a better understanding of what branching/rays, etc is all about. [dt]

[Myron Tay]

Do we have a term for those branching which splits into 4 branches instead of the usual two?

[Myron Tay]

Do we have a term for those branching which splits into 4 branches instead of the usual two?

[Myron Tay]

One opinion:

It's always 1 split into 2 but sometimes the secondary split is so near to the primary that it appears to split into 4 but if you look closely it's still 1 split into 2 and then split again.

Anyone can confirm or refute this observation?

[Myron Tay]

One opinion:

It's always 1 split into 2 but sometimes the secondary split is so near to the primary that it appears to split into 4 but if you look closely it's still 1 split into 2 and then split again.

Anyone can confirm or refute this observation?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

One opinion:

It's always 1 split into 2 but sometimes the secondary split is so near to the primary that it appears to split into 4 but if you look closely it's still 1 split into 2 and then split again.

Anyone can confirm or refute this observation?


Does the above explanation explain what I observe in this fish?

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/cgi-bin/auction/img_upload/grp4crowntail1073199411.jpg

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

One opinion:

It's always 1 split into 2 but sometimes the secondary split is so near to the primary that it appears to split into 4 but if you look closely it's still 1 split into 2 and then split again.

Anyone can confirm or refute this observation?


Does the above explanation explain what I observe in this fish?

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/cgi-bin/auction/img_upload/grp4crowntail1073199411.jpg

[vincent mah]

Yes but with some breed it is not so 1 split to 2 split to
some to 3 split or 4 split rays more so in some yellow,orange
colour betta.
Also some towards the end split are not stream line
splits.They have uneven split toward the end
or uneven splits of odd or even numbers they are not
stream line but growing like tree branch.These bettas
tend to have folded fins with uneven space of webbings.

[vincent mah]

Yes but with some breed it is not so 1 split to 2 split to
some to 3 split or 4 split rays more so in some yellow,orange
colour betta.
Also some towards the end split are not stream line
splits.They have uneven split toward the end
or uneven splits of odd or even numbers they are not
stream line but growing like tree branch.These bettas
tend to have folded fins with uneven space of webbings.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by vincent mah

Yes but with some breed it is not so 1 split to 2 split to
some to 3 split or 4 split rays more so in some yellow,orange
colour betta.
Also some towards the end split are not stream line
splits.They have uneven split toward the end
or uneven splits of odd or even numbers they are not
stream line but growing like tree branch.These bettas
tend to have folded fins with uneven space of webbings.
Vincent

This is the first time I have heard of a one-to-three split. In any case, what should we call such multiple splits / branches to differentiate them from one-to-two branch?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by vincent mah

Yes but with some breed it is not so 1 split to 2 split to
some to 3 split or 4 split rays more so in some yellow,orange
colour betta.
Also some towards the end split are not stream line
splits.They have uneven split toward the end
or uneven splits of odd or even numbers they are not
stream line but growing like tree branch.These bettas
tend to have folded fins with uneven space of webbings.
Vincent

This is the first time I have heard of a one-to-three split. In any case, what should we call such multiple splits / branches to differentiate them from one-to-two branch?

[Myron Tay]

Betttas with multiple splits - do these breed true?

[Myron Tay]

Betttas with multiple splits - do these breed true?

[vincent mah]

Myron,

No no not that. It is some 'faulty gene/s' or what? You can see in
some plakat or vail tail and some HM.Where the one split to two then
for the normal it split to four but one of them did not split.
Let me try to explain it in detail.

'Normally' the primary split to two secondary rays.Then it split to 4 tertiary rays.But if one of the primary don't split so you get one primary and 2 tertiary rays (3 rays not 4 tertiary rays).
Then if there is a quaternary ray split you get 6 rays(4 quaternary rays and two secondary rays)or if that said primary did not split again you with get a 5 rays (4 quaternary rays and 1 primary rays .

Usually with this kind of faulty split the webbing in between the rays is a bit of uneven distance and some times there may be a bent on the ray/s(i call it a break,not streamlined) on this ray(s).

I hope you understand my explaination.

Sorry to get you hope up for the multi rays (one primary to 3 seconday rays).

But have seen that(multi split) but the did not breed true (must be a mutation). It may be a split that is very near.Have to get that on a microscope to comfirm it. But did not put any work on it.
If i come across any, will let you know after i confirm it is a multi split.

[vincent mah]

Myron,

No no not that. It is some 'faulty gene/s' or what? You can see in
some plakat or vail tail and some HM.Where the one split to two then
for the normal it split to four but one of them did not split.
Let me try to explain it in detail.

'Normally' the primary split to two secondary rays.Then it split to 4 tertiary rays.But if one of the primary don't split so you get one primary and 2 tertiary rays (3 rays not 4 tertiary rays).
Then if there is a quaternary ray split you get 6 rays(4 quaternary rays and two secondary rays)or if that said primary did not split again you with get a 5 rays (4 quaternary rays and 1 primary rays .

Usually with this kind of faulty split the webbing in between the rays is a bit of uneven distance and some times there may be a bent on the ray/s(i call it a break,not streamlined) on this ray(s).

I hope you understand my explaination.

Sorry to get you hope up for the multi rays (one primary to 3 seconday rays).

But have seen that(multi split) but the did not breed true (must be a mutation). It may be a split that is very near.Have to get that on a microscope to comfirm it. But did not put any work on it.
If i come across any, will let you know after i confirm it is a multi split.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks, Vincent. Got what you mean.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks, Vincent. Got what you mean.

[Myron Tay]

Taking the multi-split betta to the extreme, is it possible to create a betta caudal that is HM but which has equally-spaced rays extending from the penducle (with no splits / branching)? Personally, I think this would be spectacular!

Do we have something like this already?

[Myron Tay]

Taking the multi-split betta to the extreme, is it possible to create a betta caudal that is HM but which has equally-spaced rays extending from the penducle (with no splits / branching)? Personally, I think this would be spectacular!

Do we have something like this already?

[vincent mah]

No i wander if it is possible not to have splits to have
HM.

For me a HM should have up to about 8(tertiary) or max 16(quarternary)
splits.

What i would look out for is a axe shape caudal and outer
rays not to short (best all the way if not 3quater way to edge).

[Myron Tay]

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/cgi-bin/auction/img_upload/grp4crowntail1073199411.jpg

I propose that such one to four or more split (instead of the usual one to two and then to four split) in long-finned non-fringe finned bettas be termed as one-to-four splits or one-to-four branches. Hence, using Dr Lucas' terminology, the above fish (if it was a halfmoon) would be termed as a betta with single one-to-four branching in its caudal fin.

[Myron Tay]

So is ray branching (one-to-two or one-to-many) a dominant or recessive trait? I must admit that I have not observed this closely in my line to come to any conclusions on this.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

The amount of ray-splitting can't be the work of a single gene.
Care to elaborate on why you have arrived at this conclusion, Sylwester?

[Ramon]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

The amount of ray-splitting can't be the work of a single gene.
Care to elaborate on why you have arrived at this conclusion, Sylwester?


It's as easy as 1-2-3-4.

One gene, be it most complicated (co-dominance), allows 3 possible phenotypes (AA, Aa, aa).

But since we have a larger amount of phenotypes (e.g. one phenotpye for each splitting) due to splittings up to 4 or even 5, more genes must be involved.
B U T:
Another possibility would be 1 gene with multiple alleles. In this case 1 gene would contain more than 2 alleles.

However, at least we can say that more than 2 alleles must be involved.

Regards
Ramon

[Myron Tay]

I see. Thanks for clarifying, Ramon.

[Ramon]

You're welcome. Hope I did not sound like a teacher ;)

Myron, in another thread you mentioned that 2 rays (1 split) is sufficient for HM. That is good news, since even most plakat have this trait.

I am more concerned about straight rays. My opinion is, that I would prefer a SD with straight rays over a HM with bent/curved rays.

Any ideas how much this trait is relating to maintenance or genetics ?

Regards
Ramon

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Ramon

You're welcome. Hope I did not sound like a teacher ;)

Myron, in another thread you mentioned that 2 rays (1 split) is sufficient for HM. That is good news, since even most plakat have this trait.

I am more concerned about straight rays. My opinion is, that I would prefer a SD with straight rays over a HM with bent/curved rays.

Any ideas how much this trait is relating to maintenance or genetics ?

Regards
RamonRamon

My view is that ray straightness is linked more to genetics. Some lines of reds perpetually come up with curved rays no matter what the water conditions, while some lines produce fish with straight rays in spite of less than ideal water conditions.

[Myron Tay]

Spoke to Dan Young a little on this and he told me that in his experience, one has to be careful about keeping the ray branching as it is easy to lose. I take it to mean that bettas with massive ray branching is recessive to those with less ray branching. This mirrors what I have observed in my latest spawns too, though it is far from conclusive. Any more experience by others?

[Myron Tay]

My preliminary observations from my latest spawn is that those fish with more ray branching is recessive to those with less ray branching. Will investigate further.

I have also noticed a difference in when the ray branching occurs in all of the fins. Those with early ray branching (i.e. it occurs nearer the ray root) then to exhibit greater ray branching subsequently than those with later ray branching. Need to investigate the genetics connected to this further.

Would be great if other breeders can also share their experience.