Curling of Rays

[imported_n/a]

Hello all...

some fellow hobbists says that the curling of rays of CTs are due to bacteria attack...and that commercial breeders treat their water with medicine so that to control this disease that results in the rays culring... wonder what you all think.

Myself have just experimented aging water with a 3 feet tank... adding Nutrafin aqua plus (anti Chlorine & chloramine)with ketapang leaves soaked in there for 2 days...and partial water change every 2 days..... but still facing the rays thinning and curling... please see pics when fish newly jarred

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/cl%20yong/200352701140_newly%20jarred.JPG

and after one month....

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/cl%20yong/20035270134_Royal%20Blue%20F1%202.JPG


Please see slight curling at the dorsal rays....
Anyway ... he was living in a Nisso Tank.... hmmm understand ... could be that the tank is still too small...
but please let me know what you think of the bacteria/disease theory.

[Brandon Chia]

IMO, i guess there are alot of factors that cause fin curls. It can be genetics,water,temp.....etc. We cannot pin point which is the main cause as I feel all the factors have to be just right in order to minimise the curling problem. (i.e Aged water, Right Temp, Large swimming space..etc)

But with regards to your theory I tend to agree that bacteria may cause fin curls and thinning of the rays. I find because of the fact that CTs have alot of their rays in contact with the water, it will also be very easy to be suspectible to bacteria infections.

But in your case, maybe a larger tank will help to stop the curling problem.

[Brandon Chia]

IMO, i guess there are alot of factors that cause fin curls. It can be genetics,water,temp.....etc. We cannot pin point which is the main cause as I feel all the factors have to be just right in order to minimise the curling problem. (i.e Aged water, Right Temp, Large swimming space..etc)

But with regards to your theory I tend to agree that bacteria may cause fin curls and thinning of the rays. I find because of the fact that CTs have alot of their rays in contact with the water, it will also be very easy to be suspectible to bacteria infections.

But in your case, maybe a larger tank will help to stop the curling problem.

[imported_n/a]

Ok... will do... I guess will have to manage as got a lot of constraints... no prob.
Thanks.

[imported_n/a]

Ok... will do... I guess will have to manage as got a lot of constraints... no prob.
Thanks.

[Phil]

Your steel CT is indeed curling. My estimate is that the CT is only about 3 - 4 months. A bit young to start curling. That curl will deteriorate if left unattended. Use a larger tank and do introduce some current flow to keep it in check. Incidentally is that the same fish? The colour is different and they look like 2 different CTs to me.

[Phil]

Your steel CT is indeed curling. My estimate is that the CT is only about 3 - 4 months. A bit young to start curling. That curl will deteriorate if left unattended. Use a larger tank and do introduce some current flow to keep it in check. Incidentally is that the same fish? The colour is different and they look like 2 different CTs to me.

[Myron Tay]

Phil, you mentioned a current flow. I also use a pump in my grow-up tanks and my fries have no curling problems. It is only after I have started jarring them that the curl factor comes in. Do you think that introducing a mild current flow into our tanks is the answer to the curling problems?

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

Your steel CT is indeed curling. My estimate is that the CT is only about 3 - 4 months. A bit young to start curling. That curl will deteriorate if left unattended. Use a larger tank and do introduce some current flow to keep it in check. Incidentally is that the same fish? The colour is different and they look like 2 different CTs to me.

[Myron Tay]

Phil, you mentioned a current flow. I also use a pump in my grow-up tanks and my fries have no curling problems. It is only after I have started jarring them that the curl factor comes in. Do you think that introducing a mild current flow into our tanks is the answer to the curling problems?

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

Your steel CT is indeed curling. My estimate is that the CT is only about 3 - 4 months. A bit young to start curling. That curl will deteriorate if left unattended. Use a larger tank and do introduce some current flow to keep it in check. Incidentally is that the same fish? The colour is different and they look like 2 different CTs to me.

[Phil]

It helps, I am quite sure of this. In my opinion, stagnant water has a part to play whether directly or indirectly in fin curls. I believe that the built up in a.nitrate is also faster when the water is left stagnant, than when it is circulating.

[imported_n/a]

Hello Phil,

Thanks very much for the advice...

'I apologise for the quality of the photos as me still very lousy photographer and yet to buy a daylight bulb so using tungsten ones ...color yellowish...so gives out a wierd color quality..
the young fish was photographed in the day and the older one was photographed at night(using the bulb)'

Sorry cannot tell if it is the same fish ... never kept track :p
but this is just to give an example of the problems that i face.

I am very sad because most of them are worst than that... with serious thinning and curling... ... I have been observing them closely and the funny thing is the thinning starts almost immidiately when i Jar them... and literally see the rays start to get skinny day by day....(as mentioned by Myron and it is amazing to see the transformation)

the actual curling only started from last week after my water change which i aged according to the above stated method..(before that I was still gloating to my GF that this time it works with the extra effort I put in there is no curling haha, Little did I know) :(

What I am trying to figure out is there any medication there to boost the fish system so that can make their rays stronger...???? Of course the usual water change and care have to be taken.... wondering if you all have any idea...

thanks

rgds
cL

[Myron Tay]

Thanks, Phil. Any ideas how to introduce current flows to all the individual tanks housing the breeder males?

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

It helps, I am quite sure of this. In my opinion, stagnant water has a part to play whether directly or indirectly in fin curls. I believe that the built up in a.nitrate is also faster when the water is left stagnant, than when it is circulating.

[Phil]

Yong, I will settle your problem first. What I say may be quite contradictory but it may be the lesser of 2 evils.

Curtail complete water change. Reason, there is no good water available to do a 100% water change without damaging the fish even more. Start doing the 25% change daily.

Just Siphon out the dirt and faeces and top up with aged treated water. It might be even better to recycle your old waste water (Hobson's choice), so work out a filteration system that will clear your water off a. nitrate and such radicals.

You can use plants, bio-balls, carbon filteration etc. With the dirt removed and filtered, reuse back the water after reprocessing it and checking PH etc.

As Brandon has stated this of course is also very dependent on your betta genetics. But if water is the cause, this will probably be the best way to address it. This will work only as a prevention measure, but it will not be able to uncurl your curled rays.


quote:Originally posted by CL Yong

Hello Phil,

Thanks very much for the advice...

'I apologise for the quality of the photos as me still very lousy photographer and yet to buy a daylight bulb so using tungsten ones ...color yellowish...so gives out a wierd color quality..
the young fish was photographed in the day and the older one was photographed at night(using the bulb)'

Sorry cannot tell if it is the same fish ... never kept track :p
but this is just to give an example of the problems that i face.

I am very sad because most of them are worst than that... with serious thinning and curling... ... I have been observing them closely and the funny thing is the thinning starts almost immidiately when i Jar them... and literally see the rays start to get skinny day by day....(as mentioned by Myron and it is amazing to see the transformation)

the actual curling only started from last week after my water change which i aged according to the above stated method..(before that I was still gloating to my GF that this time it works with the extra effort I put in there is no curling haha, Little did I know) :(

What I am trying to figure out is there any medication there to boost the fish system so that can make their rays stronger...???? Of course the usual water change and care have to be taken.... wondering if you all have any idea...

thanks

rgds
cL

[Phil]

Hi Myron, Well I do use plastic containers with holes bored in them. I then placed all these containers within a large tank or tub. Use a power head on one end then allow the water to go through an overhead filteration system and out through the far end. The water is constantly circulating. Alternatively you may wish to drill holes along the entire pipe length or filteration box so that water flows out through the box or pipe. These can then be directed into your containers in accordance to the intensity of the water flow you wish to adopt. A modified version of my thread-mill.

[imported_n/a]

Hey Phil thanks...

I understand what you mean .... everytime i change 3/4 of the water... (Too Much!!) and every two day...

possible PH fluctuations as unless using digital PH measure cannot tell for sure ... the chemical PH tester i use which is 3 to 9 cannot tell me exactly ...

I tested the aged water it showed between 6-7 and the water in the tanks showed something similar... so thought it safe to do major changes...,.. haha... thought it was better to do more water changes...

Hmmm recycling the water ... that is a great Idea... need to find out more because all the while is using simple air filter.... those that you bubble water thru to filter....
My mum already frowning on the water usage and feel it is a waste as well but needed to try it out...

Not sure whether this sound crazy but the funny thing is that someone recommended using yellow power to reduce the thinning of the rays.. and i tried a bit... unless i am mistaken it helped slightly...the rays stopped thinning for my older fishes... wonder what you think!!


appreciate the advice phil.... HAHA was just looking at my poster from straits and was telling myself that the Plakats looks damn attractive...Less heart ache... (no curling rays)

[Myron Tay]

I actually use the water in my community female tank to change abput 90% of the water in my individual tanks. Something to consider?

[imported_n/a]

Hello Myron,

Hmmm .. won't the water already be dirty?
The water has already been 'Lived In' :D:D

Will try that as well.... hiya... got one more batch coming up... so haha another opportunity to try out different methods ...


rgds
cL

[Myron Tay]

Initally yes. But if you change some individual tank water every day (I am assuming you have 10 like me or more tanks), you would be changing a part of the water in the community tank water every day too (since you need to top up the tank after taking the water to fill your individual tank). Add to this the fact that you would be (hopefully) removing the dirt in your community tank regularly. After a while, the water in your community tank would be very clean. That has been my experience!

quote:Originally posted by CL Yong

Hello Myron,

Hmmm .. won't the water already be dirty?
The water has already been 'Lived In' :D:D

Will try that as well.... hiya... got one more batch coming up... so haha another opportunity to try out different methods ...


rgds
cL

[imported_n/a]

quote: Initally yes. But if you change some individual tank water every day (I am assuming you have 10 like me or more tanks), you would be changing a part of the water in the community tank water every day too (since you need to top up the tank after taking the water to fill your individual tank). Add to this the fact that you would be (hopefully) removing the dirt in your community tank regularly. After a while, the water in your community tank would be very clean. That has been my experience!

hmmm ok ... wow.... do you feel sometimes like a slave to your bettas??? So much water changes and every day!!! wow...


How about using the community tank as a recycling plant.... I know that the females are more tolerant to water conditions than the male....so how about

1) Pack the community tank with high powered bio filter....
2) put in loads of plants to clean up nitrates ....
3) setup like planted tank so that the plants can work round the clock,
4) let the water run for two days before using...

wonder if that would be possible... and would that work??? will have to try out in my 3 ft aging tank?? (more work to do.)

hey thanks a bunch Myron..... appreciate it..

[Myron Tay]

Why not? And let us know the results, yah?

[Myron Tay]

One thing that has to be considered when using the filter is the pump power should not be too strong. Otherwise, your females would have a miserable time. What pump are you intending to use?

[Phil]

Good show Myron, I do something similar too but I make use of coffee strainer to do the job for first phase filteration. Better buy yours quick because NTUC will be running out of coffee strainers/filters soon.:D

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Initally yes. But if you change some individual tank water every day (I am assuming you have 10 like me or more tanks), you would be changing a part of the water in the community tank water every day too (since you need to top up the tank after taking the water to fill your individual tank). Add to this the fact that you would be (hopefully) removing the dirt in your community tank regularly. After a while, the water in your community tank would be very clean. That has been my experience!

quote:Originally posted by CL Yong

Hello Myron,

Hmmm .. won't the water already be dirty?
The water has already been 'Lived In' :D:D

Will try that as well.... hiya... got one more batch coming up... so haha another opportunity to try out different methods ...


rgds
cL

[imported_n/a]

I have a small power head that I intend to use... please see pic.. think this is the overhead filteration thingy...(sorry totally foreign to filters will need to find out more)

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/cl%20yong/200352902857_Power%20Head%20small.JPG

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/cl%20yong/200352902935_Filter%20box.JPG

understand that bettas cannot take too strong a current... so think that this pump is not too strong..

[Phil]

CL,

you will have to dampen the flow pace by placing the power head within a plastic canister with holes in it, for the dirt to seep through, to prevent the betta from coming too close to your power head.

[imported_n/a]

Okie Dokie.
quote:you will have to dampen the flow pace by placing the power head within a plastic canister with holes in it, for the dirt to seep through, to prevent the betta from coming too close to your power head.

Will put those plastic mesh thing that can be bought at DIY shop.
No prob... don't want wait get betta juice from the motor. (Buzz buzz)


Will let you all know the results in about 2 mnths time... (My mom will be happy when i recycle the water, : )
reduce utility bills.)

Thanks guys.... for your time and advice..

[SimonLiew]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

CL,

you will have to dampen the flow pace by placing the power head within a plastic canister with holes in it, for the dirt to seep through, to prevent the betta from coming too close to your power head.


Hi Phil Ngo and the rest,
My name is Simon(fr KL.), and am new here, I just cannot resist contributing here because I use a similiar method as you've mentioned. The power head I use is the smallest available - 8 watt. it is more like a sponge filter but mounted with a plastic canister with a sponge in it. I did a little DIY here, I remove the sponge and add a smaller round attachment inside the canister to reduce the suction(so that you won't get Betta juice). Like most powerheads there are 2 outlets, one normally goes to the top filter and one used for circulating the water in the tank - I usually close the one that circulates the tank. Doing so, this helps to reduce the water current in the tank. In general, bettas do not like fast flowing waters so this may be the best solution using a powerhead in your betta tank. I can post a few pics of the powerhead if anyone requires.

As for the curling rays, this is the most common problem, it's the water problem. Some fish starts to curl earlier than others. It's just some fishes has more resistance than others.

I don't beleive in 25% water change all the way. If I were to do it, I will only do it once after a fresh total change, then the next change would be a total change.

regards
Simon

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Initally yes. But if you change some individual tank water every day (I am assuming you have 10 like me or more tanks), you would be changing a part of the water in the community tank water every day too (since you need to top up the tank after taking the water to fill your individual tank). Add to this the fact that you would be (hopefully) removing the dirt in your community tank regularly. After a while, the water in your community tank would be very clean. That has been my experience!

quote:Originally posted by CL Yong

Hello Myron,

Hmmm .. won't the water already be dirty?
The water has already been 'Lived In' :D:D

Will try that as well.... hiya... got one more batch coming up... so haha another opportunity to try out different methods ...


rgds
cL



First off, I must state that my experience is in halfmoons rather than crowntails. But halfmoon are just as susceptible to fin curls due to their long fins.

For information, I have discontinued the practice described above as I have discovered that the practice leads to an accumulation of small particles in the water which is highly unsightly and adds to the nitrate problems in the individual tanks, especially since I do not change 100% of the water at each water change. It also does not remove the fin curl problem.

I am convinced that fin curl is the result of placing a fish in a different environment with significantly different water parameters from that which it is used to previously. This is clearly evident from the difficulty in maintaining fish that were acquired from overseas sources since the tap water from different countries have different water parameters. If that is the case, the answer to preventing fin curl is theoretically simple - provide the same water parameters to what the fish is previously accustomed to. However, this is extremely difficult to do in practice unless fish are bought from local breeders. Just my own personal observation.

[SimonLiew]

quote:Originally posted by Phil Ngo

CL,

you will have to dampen the flow pace by placing the power head within a plastic canister with holes in it, for the dirt to seep through, to prevent the betta from coming too close to your power head.
Here is a picture of the powerhead with the canister attachment.

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/SimonLiew/2004220221329_Powerhead1.JPG

[Myron Tay]

Good to link this thread with these two other threads:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=110
http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1007

[jocelyn]

Jus wondering, if my tank is a small one, how do I introduce a current in? Anyone tried sponge filter before?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by jocelyn

Jus wondering, if my tank is a small one, how do I introduce a current in? Anyone tried sponge filter before?
Use a small sponge filter and a current channeller that has an adjustable extra outlet valve.

[jocelyn]

Where to buy it? Roughly how much?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by jocelyn

Where to buy it? Roughly how much?
Jocelyn

The sponge filter would be about S$4-S$8 (depending on size and make) and the valve should be S$1.50-S$2 or so. Should be available at all major aquarium stores.

[jocelyn]

Oh.. Thanks alot.. C328 mus hav it den? Quite near my hse? Izzit complusary for CT to have a current flow in their tank?

[Phil]

That is a rather strong word. Nothing is compulsory and CT bettas have been known to strive in mineral bottles as well. The purpose of going through the whole rigmarole is to maintain the finnage of the bettas. I will only do this for my show bettas. The others do not get this special treatment. An easier way is to put a betta into a three or four feet tank with your guppies or any mild mannered ornamental fish.


quote:Originally posted by jocelyn

Oh.. Thanks alot.. C328 mus hav it den? Quite near my hse? Izzit complusary for CT to have a current flow in their tank?

[imported_n/a]

i saw one of my teacher placing their CTs with guppies...surprising the CT nv attack them...

[Phil]

Oh they coexist pretty well. I have watched my bettas flare at my guppies, but they just simply swim away, hence no challenge to the betta's dominance.

[Shan Yew]

Does maintaining the pH level help? I was told by a betta shopkeeper that high pH is the root of many evils. In his opinion, a pH level of 6.5-7 will keep the CTs (or any other bettas) in optimum condition. Of course, the regular water changes etc. are still required. I do not keep any CTs, but I do maintain my pH level around 6.5-7 for all my bettas. So far so good.
Cheers!!

[Phil]

Bettas can trive in water with low acidity. No problem with 5 - 7 PH level. However, this is but one of the factors. Please check site on water maintenance

[Daniel Chia]

Hi Shan,

Welcome to the forum. The following links on Ketapang Leaf and Water pH should be useful. :)

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2140

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1775

[Shan Yew]

Thanks Daniel,
Will read up the 2 links.

[paul kusmin]

the only real instance of fin curling i've noticed with my recent spawn is the first boy i jarred. he was the biggest and fastest grower. his fins curled so that they became curly. could be that he just grew too fast as this hasn't affected any others in the spawn. at first i was worried that there was something wrong with my water and every guy was going to end up this way but luckely it was only the one boy.

[Myron Tay]

In red halfmoon lines, I have come to realise that some lines are more susceptible to fin curl than others. Is this true of crowntail lines? Red crowntail lines? Just curious...

[Jodi Lea]

Myron, I do think there is a genetic element. I had a blue CT and red CT spawn both bred on the same day. Care for both spawns was the same - yet some of the early maturing red CTs developed curled rays after jarring. None of the blue did. Those red CT that are still in the community tank have no curling. It could be that some fish are genetically pre-disposed, but will only show the fault if the environmental factor is triggered. I am going to jar the remaining reds, so it will be interesting to see if they also curl at a later date.
CTs seem to do better in larger volumes of water or drip systems. The rays may be more sensitive to ammonia build up.
For your reference - my water is pH 8.5 and pretty hard! Have had no problem with the HM stock.
Cheers, J