Price [worth] of a good fish

[Foo Hong]

I pondered for long before I decide to kick off this thread. It will[ i am sure ] a touchy n probably sensitive issue to some. nevertheless, why hide it...speak yr mind. My prupose is sort of to 'educate' the newer ones in bettas on what to by.

To me the first thing we need to understand before we even go further is " what is a good betta" . and Good means what? Nice? bredability? or what else.

Then we ask pricing, locally, regionally, worldwide n compare the atmosphere in some places and why we are such in singapore.

I dont wanna do all the talking. Lets restrict the posting initially to part 1 of this debate - what is a good betta[that one will buy]. keep it to this topic first. once we have a better idea then we probe deeper to study why people would pay, n why some wont.

Good bettas? yes...from the floor pls!

[Brandon Chia]

My defination of a good betta:
1)Good/Stable Lineage (Breedability)
2)Nice Finnage
3)Nice Colouration

I emphasize esp on point 1. As i am onli willing to pay a high price for a fish from a good linneage. No point paying for a fish that looks onli good on the outside but when you breed it a whole bunch of funni colours a weird finnages appears.

[Brandon Chia]

My defination of a good betta:
1)Good/Stable Lineage (Breedability)
2)Nice Finnage
3)Nice Colouration

I emphasize esp on point 1. As i am onli willing to pay a high price for a fish from a good linneage. No point paying for a fish that looks onli good on the outside but when you breed it a whole bunch of funni colours a weird finnages appears.

[Thomas LimKY]

My definition of a good betta is
1. Healthy, virile, young
2. Vibrant, energetic.
3. Good even colouration, and/or patterning.
4. Good finnage but must be proportional.
5. Proportional body shape.

In addition, I agree with Brandon that a betta for breeding should also be provided with as much genetic history as possible. This is to eliminate the propagation of genetic defects or unwanted traits. This way, buyers will not be entitled to curse and swear at the seller when their spawn turns out badly.

[Thomas LimKY]

My definition of a good betta is
1. Healthy, virile, young
2. Vibrant, energetic.
3. Good even colouration, and/or patterning.
4. Good finnage but must be proportional.
5. Proportional body shape.

In addition, I agree with Brandon that a betta for breeding should also be provided with as much genetic history as possible. This is to eliminate the propagation of genetic defects or unwanted traits. This way, buyers will not be entitled to curse and swear at the seller when their spawn turns out badly.

[Brandon Chia]

It's easy to find cheap and beautiful bettas. But It's damn difficult to find a cheap and good breeding bettas. :)

[Brandon Chia]

It's easy to find cheap and beautiful bettas. But It's damn difficult to find a cheap and good breeding bettas. :)

[Myron Tay]

I guess it really depends on what perspective you are looking from. From a buyer and keeper point of view, how a fish looks (phenotype) is the criteria. If you are a breeder, the genotype (lineage) is more critical than the phenotype.

[Myron Tay]

I guess it really depends on what perspective you are looking from. From a buyer and keeper point of view, how a fish looks (phenotype) is the criteria. If you are a breeder, the genotype (lineage) is more critical than the phenotype.

[VinceTan]

-deleted post-

nv read up on myron post..what i post was just what myron have said.
sry for the plunder.

[VinceTan]

-deleted post-

nv read up on myron post..what i post was just what myron have said.
sry for the plunder.

[Brandon Chia]

Yupz. Gotta agree on that.
quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I guess it really depends on what perspective you are looking from. From a buyer and keeper point of view, how a fish looks (phenotype) is the criteria. If you are a breeder, the genotype (lineage) is more critical than the phenotype.

[Brandon Chia]

Yupz. Gotta agree on that.
quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I guess it really depends on what perspective you are looking from. From a buyer and keeper point of view, how a fish looks (phenotype) is the criteria. If you are a breeder, the genotype (lineage) is more critical than the phenotype.

[Foo Hong]

hahaha some good ideas n views of a good betta.

To me a good betta is one that can not only win in a show, but win bcos it was judge to be good? so what is good. Since a line must be continued with successive breedings, a good betta must make a good breeder, and to me the best betta in my stock will go on to sire the next generation. Dan Young of USA once made a meaning comment on the GMBC forum - that the winning fish shld be judged on its good traits that it will pass on to the next generation as a breeder. otherwise winning fish which are not ideal for breeding would give the hobbyist the wrong impression on what is good n what is breedable!

[Foo Hong]

hahaha some good ideas n views of a good betta.

To me a good betta is one that can not only win in a show, but win bcos it was judge to be good? so what is good. Since a line must be continued with successive breedings, a good betta must make a good breeder, and to me the best betta in my stock will go on to sire the next generation. Dan Young of USA once made a meaning comment on the GMBC forum - that the winning fish shld be judged on its good traits that it will pass on to the next generation as a breeder. otherwise winning fish which are not ideal for breeding would give the hobbyist the wrong impression on what is good n what is breedable!

[Myron Tay]

I have no problems with that definition theoretically. However, in practice, it is virtually impossible to tell the suppressed recessive genes in the best looking of fish. And frankly, if I am not interested to breed the fish, I would not care less about its genetic make-up. It is too complex and varied!
It is critical for serious breeders in space-scare Singapore to understand the genetics of their breeding stock, since we would have to pick very selectively our breeders. We cannot afford to aga-aga, since we do not have the luxury of space our friends in the neighbouring countries have. It is important that we all do this, otherwise, it would be back to square one for one who cross-breeds his line to an line with unknown genetic traits. We should speak the same language.
But back to our topic of discussion. It is also with this known genetic traits that we are able to distinguish our fishes from those sold at the stores - our buyers know exactly what they are going to get, including the genetic lineage. So for those interested in breeding the fish, they are not just buying the fish, but also the lineage. This would increase the worth of our fish.

[Myron Tay]

I have no problems with that definition theoretically. However, in practice, it is virtually impossible to tell the suppressed recessive genes in the best looking of fish. And frankly, if I am not interested to breed the fish, I would not care less about its genetic make-up. It is too complex and varied!
It is critical for serious breeders in space-scare Singapore to understand the genetics of their breeding stock, since we would have to pick very selectively our breeders. We cannot afford to aga-aga, since we do not have the luxury of space our friends in the neighbouring countries have. It is important that we all do this, otherwise, it would be back to square one for one who cross-breeds his line to an line with unknown genetic traits. We should speak the same language.
But back to our topic of discussion. It is also with this known genetic traits that we are able to distinguish our fishes from those sold at the stores - our buyers know exactly what they are going to get, including the genetic lineage. So for those interested in breeding the fish, they are not just buying the fish, but also the lineage. This would increase the worth of our fish.

[Myron Tay]

I would also encourage our commercial partners reading this to provide this value added service to our local breeders. This would be critical to the development of bettas in Singapore. For those who take this up, let me thank you for your efforts in advance.

[Myron Tay]

I would also encourage our commercial partners reading this to provide this value added service to our local breeders. This would be critical to the development of bettas in Singapore. For those who take this up, let me thank you for your efforts in advance.

[Foo Hong]

yeah yeah yeah [eb]

[Myron Tay]

Frankly, the price of the betta would reflect not just its beauty, but also its breeding potential (the offspring that it can produce in its lifetime). How is a seller to determine the truth in a buyer's claim that "he would not breed the fish"? Hence, a buyer who buys a betta with no intention of breeding must still be prepared to pay the breeding "premium".

[vong xiong]

1)branching
2)color
3)depends on the tail

super deltas shouldn't be more then 25 bucks unless its a albino
Hm's should be as much as what you want to pay for it

[Svein]

As a breeder of these juwelles, I don't pay for the phenotypes! It is not usual that there will be a nice fish with not that good pedigree.

I think it's important that the breedrs have a pedigree of their fish. What I need as Myron also said, is the genotype, and I should very much know the 4-5 last generations. The breeder who cannot give me that, I don't buy from, because I use a lot of money importing these, and I have also a goal for my breeding.
I have no problems paying 50-60 dollar for a good pedigree male, but I will never pay 50 -60 dollar just for a good looking HM phenotype if I don't like the genomaterial.

I have a cat breeder friend, on of the best Siamese breeder in Scandinavia,; when she should buy a kitten, she wasn't interesting looking at the kitten, she "bought" the pedigree.

But i see at aquabid among others that people pay a lot of money just for a rear color, and I pressume that this is people that just keep them as a nice "jewllies".

And I.m sorry to say, I get sad when breeders put for sale an albino for 100 dollars because it's a rear species.

I wouldn't have that type in my tank at all, because of the weakness of this line.
Have a nice betta weekend
regards Svein

[sylwester]

And to underline the last answers. Buying fish that will help save time could be worth the extra cabbage.

[vong xiong]

svein wouldnt you think a nice betta would come from a nice line?

[Svein]

Vong, yes or no, and it's funny to say, speaking of breeding dogs and cats, if you put 2 champions together with real good lines, you have no guaranty getting new champions. A lot of people think so, but the real clever breeder, study and study the pedigree, finding a male and female who are genetic matching.

I have seen a lot of times "ugly" male mating "ugly female, but they are giving incredibale nice kitten. The same thing I belive in the fish genetic world.

From not exellent lines and among 200 - 300 fries, you will become 1 star, but if you are breeding them futher, you will be disappointed.

So therfor the geneo type is very important for me, and also when I buy a male I want a sibling female, so I have som genetic control when F1 appear. And for me who are working with solid colors, of course I want the stud to be mostly homogozygot, I don't want too much other colors in the fish.
Another problem for the HM and CT I think is that thye are quite new genetic species, and I think they need 5-10 more years to settle.
I'm now starting an import from Thailand and USA, so I can get 2 very different lines in ex red, and I think thats important, and it will cost me a lot of money, so I have to work a lot of overtime[bh]
but I hope it's worth it.

But this is my subjective thoughts, I use a lot of the same breeding princip for Bettas as i do for Cats.

[chue xiong]

yup i agree with you svein it matter all about where the line comes from. but it is also important about the fish you getting aswell just because it comes from a good line dont always mean that you will get what you want out of that spawn.

[Lyon Goh]

I believe Price is not a problem. Nowadays many are asking "Market Price" and such. But I personally believe there ain't a thing call market price. Its just personal preference. If I like a Blue HM, I would pay even it means taking away my weekly allowance. But if the fish is something I dun really fancy, I would ask for a discount and pay as low as I can.

I usually buy fish using feel. No particular standards

[vong xiong]

hehe I would agree with Lyon on that and very true on what svein said

[Myron Tay]

Frankly, the real cost is really not what you pay for the betta - it is really the cost of taking care of the fish in most cases in terms of time and care and maintenance expense, especially for halfmoons and CTs.

Assuming a pay of $5 per hour (which is very very low), the purchase of a $100 translates to only about 20 hours of work or about 2.5 days of a normal 8-hour day job.

In comparison, the amount of time that you spend maintaining one betta over an average 1 to 2 year life span is probably 120 hours (assuming 1 hour of maintenence every 3 days, which is quite reasonable given the need to change water regularly).

[roycheok]

but the reality is that our hourly pay rate varies drastically....
so, does that mean that if I buy a HM from a student, it should be about $20, but if I buy from CEO of listed company who breeds HM as a hobby..I have to pay $500??


quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Frankly, the real cost is really not what you pay for the betta - it is really the cost of taking care of the fish in most cases in terms of time and care and maintenance expense, especially for halfmoons and CTs.

Assuming a pay of $5 per hour (which is very very low), the purchase of a $100 translates to only about 20 hours of work or about 2.5 days of a normal 8-hour day job.

In comparison, the amount of time that you spend maintaining one betta over an average 1 to 2 year life span is probably 120 hours (assuming 1 hour of maintenence every 3 days, which is quite reasonable given the need to change water regularly).

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by roycheok

but the reality is that our hourly pay rate varies drastically....
so, does that mean that if I buy a HM from a student, it should be about $20, but if I buy from CEO of listed company who breeds HM as a hobby..I have to pay $500??

The price that one is willing to pay varies with individuals. Your hypothesis would hold true only if the buyer adopts the position that he wants to pay what it costs the seller to produce the betta, though this I believe is very different from the perspective of most buyers that I know.

I am obviously not making the inference that you are alluding to. How did you arrive at your conclusion from what I said earlier? [cnf]

[roycheok]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

The price that one is willing to pay varies with individuals. Your hypothesis would hold true only if the buyer adopts the position that he wants to pay what it costs the seller to produce the betta, though this I believe is very different from the perspective of most buyers that I know.

I am obviously not making the inference that you are alluding to. How did you arrive at your conclusion from what I said earlier? [cnf]


ok. I took a quite read of it...and this sentence just struck me:
quote:
Frankly, the real cost is really not what you pay for the betta - it is really the cost of taking care of the fish in most cases in terms of time and care and maintenance expense, especially for halfmoons and CTs.

guess the effort is the same, but cost of providing that effort by the individual varies. This would also hold true..if the seller prices the fish according to what he feels his time is worth...but of course, it has to be moderated by the general pricing of similar quality fish that is available locally...or in the region. I guess bottomline...if similar quality fish is readily available via a
3rd party (eg as in thai fish)...then why even bother to breed at all
(personal pride and passion...and all that crap aside). Either pay them to breed for you and just buy it off them...

[Ramon]

Another aspect just popped up in my mind and I think should be taken into account when it comes to price determination: if a breeder is contributing a lot of knowledge and effort to the society, I think this should be rewarded as well. So I was recently (and also will be in the future) willing to pay a higher price not just because of the fish, it should also be considered as an appreciation for all knowledge and help provided, especially here in this forum.
It's not just about buying 1 individual of species betta splendens, there is a lot more to it.