Fin Curling/Bending - genetics or water effect?

[Foo Hong]

Who will like to start talking? especially those who keep Crowntails......Thats why I dont keep CTs...see I smart <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Myron Tay]

This is pure speculation, but I suspect that it is both as well as the lack of a balanced diet. Basically, a lack of ideal conditions would generate fin curling / bending and a whole host of other problems. :)

[Foo Hong]

Cool. BTW , Henry Yin told me reasons for CT having curled rays are either genetics and/or water.

[Dr Hsu]

Think genetic factors will give you ray kinking and thin rays, which will make it easier to curl.

Envronmental factors would be water quality causing the fins to bend, curl. Personally also think that chloramine in water will contribute to curling - used to have CT that always curled but since using conditioners that neutralize chloramine, have not seen it.

Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"

[Myron Tay]

Dr Hsu

What brand of conditioners do you use?

[Ong Ginyew]

ya... wat kind? i use Anti-Chlorine (BIO-TEC products), still having bendings and curls...

[kennho]

Trying to stir up some of the discussion huh ...

Ok, here is what I am doing ... I am concentrating on ct for the past months and still working on the current spawn.

Like Dr Hsu mentioned, genetic factor I am not too sure. But during the selection of pair, I look for strong thick rays and large spread. From the previous spawn of ct x sd, the spawn is complete disastrous with rays uneven and thin. Rays tends to be extremely weak. Also jarring of fries need to be as early as possible to prevent nibbing. Somehow, those that are biten off will not grow back as nice. Genetic problem ?

Now latest spawn from ct pair and looking pretty good as I'm controlling the water parameters. Chloramines ? :) me only using sodium thiosulfate home made anti-chlorine with activated carbon filtration. I think now a lot of lfs selling these crystal at a whopping price of 10 bucks per kg.

Hopefully by the coming meet up, I can bring a piece or 2.

[Myron Tay]

Kenneth

What water parameters do you take note of?

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Trying to stir up some of the discussion huh ...

Ok, here is what I am doing ... I am concentrating on ct for the past months and still working on the current spawn.

Like Dr Hsu mentioned, genetic factor I am not too sure. But during the selection of pair, I look for strong thick rays and large spread. From the previous spawn of ct x sd, the spawn is complete disastrous with rays uneven and thin. Rays tends to be extremely weak. Also jarring of fries need to be as early as possible to prevent nibbing. Somehow, those that are biten off will not grow back as nice. Genetic problem ?

Now latest spawn from ct pair and looking pretty good as I'm controlling the water parameters. Chloramines ? :) me only using sodium thiosulfate home made anti-chlorine with activated carbon filtration. I think now a lot of lfs selling these crystal at a whopping price of 10 bucks per kg.

Hopefully by the coming meet up, I can bring a piece or 2.

[kennho]

pH 7.8 to 8.2, kH 4. Simply coral chip filtration, activated carbon, sodium thiosulphate and sodium bicarbonate added.

using filtration and also plants to remove ammonia but water got to be change to get rid of nitrate regularly. sucking out of dirt every 2 days and 20% water change every 3 days. 100% water change fornightly. Water vol estimated 1.8L per fish. I wanted to try on a larger vol (3L~5L) but unable to find suitable plastic containers to work on.

As for feeding, t.worms and blood worms.

[Dr Hsu]

Ken,

If I am not wrong, activated carbon will remove the chloramine?

Whatever it is, I believe it is related to water quality (ie environment) rather than genetics. Also, you may have something wrt kH measurement. Need someone like Phil to do some kH measurements of Jakarta water and compare with our water. Maybe more minerals = more "support" for the rays[cnf] (ha,ha....very scientific!:D)This seems to be one of the parameters that is not routinely taken and it would be interesting to see if there are differences in Jakarta, Bangkok and Singapore water.

[kennho]

Dr, yes. Singapore water is considered "soft". Even pH at various part of Singapore is as low as 7.3 but since the chloramines introduction caused most of our tap water to be slightly high at 7.80 . We are facing the danger of monochloramines, carbon filtration will take a long period of time. Breaking down the NH2CL to NH3/HOCL- will be faster, furthermore, I need the NH3 for something else kekekek. Let the AC work on the free CL.

As for Bangkok (outskirt), the water is highly chlorinated at 250ppm or higher and the gH is definitely higher than our local water. I remembered reading somewhere in the web that the water GH at 8dgH. I measured my tap and extremely low. Jarkarta maybe got to get someone to take the parameters. But I know their water is extremely good for hardwater fish.


Another thing to add, Size of tank. I am not too sure does size of the container matter with the growth of finage. I guess smaller water vol will be much difficult to control the toxicity.

[Tan Xiao YI]

wah all so pro i see leh my eyes @_@ blur duno wat u all toking but hehe tink u all noe water even but le anti-cl oso muz put der at least 5 hr leh so the cl will evaporate...

[Dr Hsu]

Ken,

I think we need to send Phil back with a kH/GH kit to measure Jakarta water! (Phil, are you reading this!!!!) Anyway, I know kH and GH are different but similar although can't remember specifics. Which, in your opinion, would be more useful to measure, or both?

As for tank size, I think length is important. Assuming equal volume, IMHO a longer tank is better for growth. After all, Ang Peng Siong didn't get his nice size and body shape by swimming laps in the baby pool!:D

[kennho]

hahahaha Dr, what a way to use Ang Peng Siong. I see if I can grab hold of KY to ask his Thai friend to sent some water samples here.

Xiao Yi, chlorine don't evaporate. Discharge as chlorine gas with the agitation of the water surface. Free chlorine ions will do so, but not chloramines which is a very stable disinfectant dissolved in water at high pH.

[Dr Hsu]

He was my classmate in Pr school, so I know it helps to start swimming in the olympic size pool early!:D

Maybe we can ask Phil to bring you some water samples - what do you need them in - just regular fish transport bags?

[kennho]

if can take the parameters at the site is always better. by the time reach here, a lot of measurements will be incorrect.

[Foo Hong]

dont think we shld ask Phil to vring bck the jarkarta water as some parameters may change.....test it there....Phil quick.

Also for consistency we need some std measure.
I propose...
PH , KH, GH....for a start. If possible, the chlorine and clhoramine content too ! so we got 5 parameters we can chk agst that in singapore, msia and thailand

[kennho]

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif curl.gif (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/kennho/200332813136_curl.gif)
26.83KB

Need some help here. I got 2 of my male fishes hit by this dosal curling. Females are okay. ( all these from same spawn ) Keep them in normal ketapang leaves water in the normal PET jar. 2-3 days water change, aged. Frozen bw and dried food feeding only.

Give me some feedback where and how can i improve keeping those thick large dosal fishes.

[kennho]

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif curl.gif (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/kennho/200332813136_curl.gif)
26.83KB

Need some help here. I got 2 of my male fishes hit by this dosal curling. Females are okay. ( all these from same spawn ) Keep them in normal ketapang leaves water in the normal PET jar. 2-3 days water change, aged. Frozen bw and dried food feeding only.

Give me some feedback where and how can i improve keeping those thick large dosal fishes.

[Phil]

Hmm... Ken, I really wonder if Ketapang leaves have an effect on the finnage if used excessively? How thick a solution did you use? One of my customers just brought back a Show CT to me because the rays started curling badly. He kept the fish in Ketapang water. Well I had the Caudal Rays straightened with my betta massager. but unfortunately, I don't think it will work for dorsals. I don't use frozen food or dried food for bettas so cannot comment on those too.

[Phil]

Hmm... Ken, I really wonder if Ketapang leaves have an effect on the finnage if used excessively? How thick a solution did you use? One of my customers just brought back a Show CT to me because the rays started curling badly. He kept the fish in Ketapang water. Well I had the Caudal Rays straightened with my betta massager. but unfortunately, I don't think it will work for dorsals. I don't use frozen food or dried food for bettas so cannot comment on those too.

[kennho]

That's a good question Phil. How I know how thick is the ketapang solution ? I dunno at all !!! Normally light brown tint at most. Before my last water change still ok, then kapoof ... last night water change see horror !

Problem is that i dun have such problem till lately with this batch. Still cannot figure out what's wrong. But looking at the structure, looks like it's cannot recover. Tonight sending both to my operation theatre and see what happen. sigh .... there goes my baby ... sad

[kennho]

That's a good question Phil. How I know how thick is the ketapang solution ? I dunno at all !!! Normally light brown tint at most. Before my last water change still ok, then kapoof ... last night water change see horror !

Problem is that i dun have such problem till lately with this batch. Still cannot figure out what's wrong. But looking at the structure, looks like it's cannot recover. Tonight sending both to my operation theatre and see what happen. sigh .... there goes my baby ... sad

[Phil]

From the picture that you sent,it looks like the your betta batch are STs, no sign of DT genes in its dorsal. You may want to try using it as a breeder, mating it with a DT female to get a batch with stronger dorsal rather than cutting up.

[Phil]

From the picture that you sent,it looks like the your betta batch are STs, no sign of DT genes in its dorsal. You may want to try using it as a breeder, mating it with a DT female to get a batch with stronger dorsal rather than cutting up.

[Myron Tay]

Could be due to a huge pH difference between the water is was previously in and the current water it is living in now.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif curl.gif (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/kennho/200332813136_curl.gif)
26.83?KB

Need some help here. I got 2 of my male fishes hit by this dosal curling. Females are okay. ( all these from same spawn ) Keep them in normal ketapang leaves water in the normal PET jar. 2-3 days water change, aged. Frozen bw and dried food feeding only.

Give me some feedback where and how can i improve keeping those thick large dosal fishes.

[Myron Tay]

Could be due to a huge pH difference between the water is was previously in and the current water it is living in now.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif curl.gif (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/kennho/200332813136_curl.gif)
26.83?KB

Need some help here. I got 2 of my male fishes hit by this dosal curling. Females are okay. ( all these from same spawn ) Keep them in normal ketapang leaves water in the normal PET jar. 2-3 days water change, aged. Frozen bw and dried food feeding only.

Give me some feedback where and how can i improve keeping those thick large dosal fishes.

[Myron Tay]

I am beginning to suspect that fin curling has more to do with water quality now. Am switching to bigger individual tanks for my prized bettas.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

This is pure speculation, but I suspect that it is both as well as the lack of a balanced diet. Basically, a lack of ideal conditions would generate fin curling / bending and a whole host of other problems. :)

[Myron Tay]

Update on the results of switching to bigger individual tanks (with individual filters and plants) for my prized breeders. I have also initiated partial (25-33%) water changes every 1-2 days (it was 100% water changes every 3-4 days previously).

Result: The fins have straighted out very significantly (though not 100%). However, got occasional holes in the fins, which are perhaps more due to the sharp edges of the driftwood the java fern I have placed into the tanks are attached to. Good idea to leave the java fern free floating, but otherwise, the method is highly recommended.

[Myron Tay]

Good to link this thread with this other one: http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1206

and this one:
http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1007

[Myron Tay]

Silas

This ray curling:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/2004529102213_Fin Curl.jpg

is the result of placing a fish in a different environment with significantly different water parameters from that which it is used to previously. This is clearly evident from the difficulty in maintaining fish that were acquired from overseas sources since the tap water from different countries have different water parameters. If that is the case, the answer to preventing fin curl is theoretically simple - provide the same water parameters to what the fish is previously accustomed to. However, this is extremely difficult to do in practice unless fish are bought from local breeders. Just my own personal observation.

However, I am also convinced that some fish are genetically more prone to these ray curls than other lines of fish. This is based on my personal observation and experience of several red halfmoon lines.

[Myron Tay]

Silas

This ray curling:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/2004529102213_Fin Curl.jpg

is the result of placing a fish in a different environment with significantly different water parameters from that which it is used to previously. This is clearly evident from the difficulty in maintaining fish that were acquired from overseas sources since the tap water from different countries have different water parameters. If that is the case, the answer to preventing fin curl is theoretically simple - provide the same water parameters to what the fish is previously accustomed to. However, this is extremely difficult to do in practice unless fish are bought from local breeders. Just my own personal observation.

However, I am also convinced that some fish are genetically more prone to these ray curls than other lines of fish. This is based on my personal observation and experience of several red halfmoon lines.