The Term Halfmoon Geno

[Chris Yew]

Very often we heard or seen this term HM Geno or HM Gene, should it be used at all? Let's have a healthy discussion on this.

My personal thoughts are that if there's no such thing as HM Geno or HM Gene, we should not use them at all. We can always state that the parents of the fish are HM (if they all) and that should be all.

[Sebas]

firstly, i would like to ask fellow members here, how does halfmoons come about? Mutation?

[Sebas]

firstly, i would like to ask fellow members here, how does halfmoons come about? Mutation?

[Dr Hsu]

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.

[Dr Hsu]

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.
Have a copy of Dr Lucas' column in FAMA that discussed this issue at length. He is of the view that for both HM and "King Crown" are not the result of a single gene mutation. Thanks.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.
Have a copy of Dr Lucas' column in FAMA that discussed this issue at length. He is of the view that for both HM and "King Crown" are not the result of a single gene mutation. Thanks.

[Phil]

Agreed finnage of CTs has nothing to do with mutation.

[Phil]

Agreed finnage of CTs has nothing to do with mutation.

[Foo Hong]

I ve not read JL's article or otherwise, but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders. HMs evolution come via selective breeding of long fins, going for shorter fins, broader fins, compacted ray splitting, etc.

In every delta x delta spawn, u will find a few fishes that mutate and these are the better ones, may not be HMs but going to be SDs, and if the process is repeated, u get yr HM evetually, believe tahts how Rajiv and company get theirs initially.

But to use HM geno term is quite misleading cos people tend to think of the mendleys plain-vanilla concept. I was told of this terminology initially when I started but over time, u realise that it is not a reliable term.

[Foo Hong]

I ve not read JL's article or otherwise, but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders. HMs evolution come via selective breeding of long fins, going for shorter fins, broader fins, compacted ray splitting, etc.

In every delta x delta spawn, u will find a few fishes that mutate and these are the better ones, may not be HMs but going to be SDs, and if the process is repeated, u get yr HM evetually, believe tahts how Rajiv and company get theirs initially.

But to use HM geno term is quite misleading cos people tend to think of the mendleys plain-vanilla concept. I was told of this terminology initially when I started but over time, u realise that it is not a reliable term.

[Myron Tay]

Oops. Did I say mutation? I guess I did. What I meant was that Dr Lucas' was of the view that HM and King Crown are not the result of a single gene factor. They are probably a combintation of several genes that should be in a fish that shows the phenotype. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Have a copy of Dr Lucas' column in FAMA that discussed this issue at length. He is of the view that for both HM and "King Crown", they are not the result of a single gene mutation. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.

[Myron Tay]

Oops. Did I say mutation? I guess I did. What I meant was that Dr Lucas' was of the view that HM and King Crown are not the result of a single gene factor. They are probably a combintation of several genes that should be in a fish that shows the phenotype. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Have a copy of Dr Lucas' column in FAMA that discussed this issue at length. He is of the view that for both HM and "King Crown", they are not the result of a single gene mutation. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

It is believed that HM, like CT, are variations of the long fin gene in bettas. They are not single mutations but just the extremes of the general effect of long fin, plus likely other factors like straight and long outer ray, increased ray counts, etc.

Thus, the "HM geno" term is wrongly used, since there is no HM gene per se.

[Dr Hsu]

Both a little bit right, a little bit wrong....

Most physical traits are polygenetic - ie controlled by a number of genes and can be affected by related genes. So, finnage traits are generally controlled in the same way. Mutations occur that will give rise to totally new traits, so normal wild type is short tail, but a mutation gave rise to long tail (note: long tail, not delta, veil, band etc). From long tail, variations exist due to the numerous genes involved and with selective breeding, the desired tail types are achieved.

Same for DT - single mutation giving rise to DT traits, then within the Dt variation, breeding for good splits, wide symmetrical lobes etc. If we did not, then will get all kinds of variation = heart tail, almost no split, thin lobes, assymetrical lobes etc etc.

[Dr Hsu]

Both a little bit right, a little bit wrong....

Most physical traits are polygenetic - ie controlled by a number of genes and can be affected by related genes. So, finnage traits are generally controlled in the same way. Mutations occur that will give rise to totally new traits, so normal wild type is short tail, but a mutation gave rise to long tail (note: long tail, not delta, veil, band etc). From long tail, variations exist due to the numerous genes involved and with selective breeding, the desired tail types are achieved.

Same for DT - single mutation giving rise to DT traits, then within the Dt variation, breeding for good splits, wide symmetrical lobes etc. If we did not, then will get all kinds of variation = heart tail, almost no split, thin lobes, assymetrical lobes etc etc.

[Chris Yew]

In fact, Dr.Gene Lucas has touched on the subject HM Geno in his article "When is a gene a gene"..

The used of the word Geno implies that these fish have a genotype or carry a gene that will produce more of them.

Dr. Gene Lucas also mentioned that "...the traits in Bettas known as Half Moon and Crown Tail are not the result of single gene mutations and until proved otherwise should not be considered as such."

In fact, the purpose of discussion on this term HM Geno or HM Gene is to bring awareness to the prospective buyers so that they are awared of what they are buying when sellers are using these terms.

For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Chris Yew]

In fact, Dr.Gene Lucas has touched on the subject HM Geno in his article "When is a gene a gene"..

The used of the word Geno implies that these fish have a genotype or carry a gene that will produce more of them.

Dr. Gene Lucas also mentioned that "...the traits in Bettas known as Half Moon and Crown Tail are not the result of single gene mutations and until proved otherwise should not be considered as such."

In fact, the purpose of discussion on this term HM Geno or HM Gene is to bring awareness to the prospective buyers so that they are awared of what they are buying when sellers are using these terms.

For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Myron Tay]

I propose that this be the official stand of the BCS and to be adopted by all BCS members. Further propose that those who do not observe this after repeated warnings may have their membership terminated.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew


For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Myron Tay]

I propose that this be the official stand of the BCS and to be adopted by all BCS members. Further propose that those who do not observe this after repeated warnings may have their membership terminated.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew


For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Sebas]

second that

[Sebas]

second that

[Chris Yew]

I would rather discuss these issues on a different thread under Club Issues than here. This thread is juz to highlight on the usage of the term HM Geno or HM Gene and bring awareness to the buyers. Also to discuss whether there's such a term as HM Geno or HM Gene.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I propose that this be the official stand of the BCS and to be adopted by all BCS members. Further propose that those who do not observe this after repeated warnings may have their membership terminated.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew


For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Chris Yew]

I would rather discuss these issues on a different thread under Club Issues than here. This thread is juz to highlight on the usage of the term HM Geno or HM Gene and bring awareness to the buyers. Also to discuss whether there's such a term as HM Geno or HM Gene.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I propose that this be the official stand of the BCS and to be adopted by all BCS members. Further propose that those who do not observe this after repeated warnings may have their membership terminated.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew


For sellers who are aware of the meaning of such terms, it's best not to use it in their sales pitch. But it's difficult to put a stop for all sellers using such terms, so buyers have to be more careful in their purchase.

[Foo Hong]

Being the official club of bettas, we should lead by good example and abstain from using HM geno for purpose of sales or otherwise. Like wise we shld anyhow use 'fullmoon'.

[Foo Hong]

Being the official club of bettas, we should lead by good example and abstain from using HM geno for purpose of sales or otherwise. Like wise we shld anyhow use 'fullmoon'.

[Dr Sun]

I don't agree with Foo Hong, when you said that " but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders." By definition, mutation is a physical change in the genetic material resulting in some significant changes in the phenotype of the fish. So, there is a sudden change and not changes over a peroid of time.
I go with the view that there is no halfmoon geno, as what you guys have stated, and halfmoons are developed over times by selective breedings (and not mutation). In fact, there are not many true HMs and most of the time, we have only very good superdeltas.

[Dr Sun]

I don't agree with Foo Hong, when you said that " but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders." By definition, mutation is a physical change in the genetic material resulting in some significant changes in the phenotype of the fish. So, there is a sudden change and not changes over a peroid of time.
I go with the view that there is no halfmoon geno, as what you guys have stated, and halfmoons are developed over times by selective breedings (and not mutation). In fact, there are not many true HMs and most of the time, we have only very good superdeltas.

[Phil]

Perhaps its time for the club to either work out its own standard guide or follow the IBC standard set for the following:
HM,DT,CT, Plakats and wild types.

[Phil]

Perhaps its time for the club to either work out its own standard guide or follow the IBC standard set for the following:
HM,DT,CT, Plakats and wild types.

[Foo Hong]

Oh...Dr Sun...wrong terminology? :)

kekeke...I failed biology anyway. :D

I thot mutation means change in external form! So mutation shld be change in external form but supported by genetic factors.

FooHong [bt] Dr Sun

quote:Originally posted by Dr Sun

I don't agree with Foo Hong, when you said that " but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders." By definition, mutation is a physical change in the genetic material resulting in some significant changes in the phenotype of the fish. So, there is a sudden change and not changes over a peroid of time.
I go with the view that there is no halfmoon geno, as what you guys have stated, and halfmoons are developed over times by selective breedings (and not mutation). In fact, there are not many true HMs and most of the time, we have only very good superdeltas.

[Foo Hong]

Oh...Dr Sun...wrong terminology? :)

kekeke...I failed biology anyway. :D

I thot mutation means change in external form! So mutation shld be change in external form but supported by genetic factors.

FooHong [bt] Dr Sun

quote:Originally posted by Dr Sun

I don't agree with Foo Hong, when you said that " but I do think HMs are mutations, by which I meant things evolve over time. Here, the evolution is controlled by breeders." By definition, mutation is a physical change in the genetic material resulting in some significant changes in the phenotype of the fish. So, there is a sudden change and not changes over a peroid of time.
I go with the view that there is no halfmoon geno, as what you guys have stated, and halfmoons are developed over times by selective breedings (and not mutation). In fact, there are not many true HMs and most of the time, we have only very good superdeltas.

[Myron Tay]

What Gene Lucas says:

Of course there are genetic components to Halfmoon, Crowntails, and such, but they are most probably the result of collecting several increments of change into one complex. These are known as multifactoral traits or traits with multifactoral modifiers. It is possible to make genetic analyses of them but it is more complicated and the results are not as useful for the breeder (than compared to genetic analyses of long-finned and Doubletail bettas).

[Myron Tay]

What Gene Lucas says:

Of course there are genetic components to Halfmoon, Crowntails, and such, but they are most probably the result of collecting several increments of change into one complex. These are known as multifactoral traits or traits with multifactoral modifiers. It is possible to make genetic analyses of them but it is more complicated and the results are not as useful for the breeder (than compared to genetic analyses of long-finned and Doubletail bettas).

[Dr Sun]

Hey Foo Hong, did u get a headache from all the knockings on ur head?

[Dr Sun]

Hey Foo Hong, did u get a headache from all the knockings on ur head?

[Myron Tay]

I think part of the confusion comes for what term to use to describe non-plakat, long-finned forms. The impression seems to be that long-finned = HM, when in reality, the fish might not have the definitive 180 degree straight-edged caudal of a halfmoon. Suggest that we use the description of "long-finned fish with halfmoon father / mother / parents" instead.