Yellow x yellow not = yellow?

[Foo Hong]

Yep as the title says.....

my first spawn of yellow -
Curtis Low male x Vic Chan[straits?] female = 100% yellow
[horrible finnage ! <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> culled all ]

my 2nd spawn -
P Choo yellow[from sam] male x Ah san yellow = abt 1 month now. cambodians red and some yellows seen.

Thk Hsu was correct when he mentioned before that there are more than 1 type of yellow gene. If we call them Y1 and Y2 genes, in which they behave interactively like steel and turq colours to give royal blue, then one could say that Y1 + Y2 = Camb Red.

But how do we explain those yellow offsprings in teh same spawn. if we say that instead, they are Y1/CR geno and Y2/CR geno, it also doesnt make sense as there appears to be more Camb Red in the spawn! <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>



Edited by - Foo Hong on 05 May 2002 00:30:38

[Chris Yew]

The following are what Dr. Gene Lucas said about Yellow;

Yellow coloured bettas do not result from the action of a single gene. There is no such thing as a yellow gene that produces a yellow phenotype in Bettas.

Yellow Betta are phenotypes. The yellow color itself was termed as "non-red" by Dr. Gene Lucas. This "non-red" recessive gene caused bettas to be yellow where they would normally be red.

The reason why Dr. Gene Lucas did not call the gene yellow was;
1. The term non-red had been used previously to describe similar abnormalities in other organisms.
2. To avoid having people making the assumption that there was a single gene that would generate the yellow phenotype.

Ok, this is the important part of what the Dr. said;

The IBC standards categorize yellow as a light-bodied, solid color type. To obtain a solid yellow, several changes must exist.

The black and iridocyte colors must be minimized (eliminated if possible), the yellow must replace the red and the red/yellow must be extended to cover the entire fish.

This requires four different alterations of three different pigment components! Two of these seem regulated by single locus recessive genes, the non-red already mentioned and the recessive cambodian gene which nearly eliminates dark pigment. The other two (the extension of red to cover the entire fish) and the reduction of iridocyte color to minimize green (or blue, if the green has been altered ... by still another gene) do not operate as though controlled by single genes.

More to come....

[kennho]

Erh ... simple english please.

[Chris Yew]

Haha, I have already 'summarised' that in simple English lah. Anyway, the above simply means that Yellow x Yellow may not necessary give you 100% Yellow.

More to come...

[Myron Tay]

It is possible then to produce a pure yellow that does not have a cambodian-like body (since we would need the gene)? If so, is there a non-cambodian (blond?) gene that eliminates dark pigment just as well or better?

[Samuel Phan]

Recently I have been doing some yellow spawns and although my spawns are 99.99% yellow ... I do have one piece that looks like a yellow cambodian. Pale body and Brownish finnage. It looks very different from the rest of the spawn of 400.

Also ... seems like a yellow fish that contains the black pigmentation and Irid wash ahve a darker shade of yellow. Anyone can throw some light into this observation?

If this is true ... then will the complete elimination of the black and iridocyte colors give rise to a pale yellow fish?

Also ... in yellows ... some are very clear(Transparent) and some very Opaque(Translucent). Some is their genetic difference? Could it be some pastel factor in them?

[Samuel Phan]

A nice yellow plakat that is very clear
- picture from Arofanatic and owned by Bettaroom (CK and Richard)

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/samuel phan/2003121134435_yellowplakats.jpg

[Samuel Phan]

My own yellow plakat
- More translucent
- More Black Piementations/Blue Wash

- Could I assume that the Si genes is playing a part in creating the "Opaque-ness" in the fish?

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/samuel phan/2003121134731_image03.jpg

[Chris Yew]

So how's Yellow represented in terms of Genetic symbols? Here;
RR/cc/nrnr

Now in simple terms;
The mutated gene in Yellow betta causes the formation of Yellow pigment instead of Red, or we can say that the Red pigment has been altered to Yellow. This mutation affects both normal Red and extended Red (Er) coloration. A Yellow (non-Red) Betta will have no Red pigment anywhere on the fish. The non-Red mutation is recessive to the gene for normal Red color and to the mutant gene for extended Red color.

The more confusing explaination;
RR/cc/nrnr
where RR =extended red, cc = Cambodia, nr = non-red

The RR specifies the dominant Extended Red. As it is dominant, this fish has red pigment cells distributed over its whole body. So it would be red all over - however, the nr gene modifies the red pigment, turning it to yellow. Also not forgetting the cc the recessive Cambodian gene which is required to nearly eliminates dark pigment. Hence, how yellow is your yellow betta depends on all these factors.

More to come...

[Chris Yew]

In both your picture and ck's, the black pigment (small amount) still can be seen on the photos - unless that's dust particles on lens lol!

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

My own yellow plakat
- More translucent
- More Black Piementations/Blue Wash

- Could I assume that the Si genes is playing a part in creating the "Opaque-ness" in the fish?

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif image03.jpg (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/samuel phan/2003121134731_image03.jpg)
11.7?KB

[Chris Yew]

The blond gene caused the Black pigment to be significantly reduced in density but not eliminating it. I think so.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

It is possible then to produce a pure yellow that does not have a cambodian-like body (since we would need the gene)? If so, is there a non-cambodian (blond?) gene that eliminates dark pigment just as well or better?

[Samuel Phan]

Thanks Chris ...

[Myron Tay]

Very clean yellows, but I agree with Chris that they are probably good yellow phenos and not genos. What is the percentage of the spawn that shares the same cleanness?

Just wondering if there is a mutated cambodian gene that is less severe in that the body loses only the dark pigments but retains the same body colour as the fins? Any body seen anything like this on any fish (doesn't have to be yellow)?

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

In both your picture and ck's, the black pigment (small amount) still can be seen on the photos - unless that's dust particles on lens lol!

[Chris Yew]

I don't think so Si genes is creating the "Opaque-ness" in fish, it's the opaque pigment.

Si, or "Spread iridocytes" served the same purpose for the distribution of iridocyte color.

Probably will talk about Si in a separate thread.

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

My own yellow plakat
- More translucent
- More Black Piementations/Blue Wash

- Could I assume that the Si genes is playing a part in creating the "Opaque-ness" in the fish?

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif image03.jpg (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/samuel phan/2003121134731_image03.jpg)
11.7?KB

[Samuel Phan]

Myron ... u are right that they are not good genos ... at least for mine.
The spawn will give rise to fishes that does not look as clean.

The percentage is in the range of 15% to 20%.
With most females being the cleaner ones.

[Myron Tay]

I think it is exactly the same as the reds as with any solid colour? The clean individual does not pass it on completely to its offspring but it does get a whole lot cleaner with selective breeding (as in the irridescent lines).

So bottom line is this - it is not good enough to just produce one clean individual. It is more important to produce a clean line - which is possible but requires (I suspect) a lot of hard work.

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

Myron ... u are right that they are not good genos ... at least for mine.
The spawn will give rise to fishes that does not look as clean.

The percentage is in the range of 15% to 20%.
With most females being the cleaner ones.

[Samuel Phan]

Yep ... more work in progress to clean up the yellows.
Have managed to retain 2 pairs of very clean ones from F1 and will try to do a F2 soon.

At the same time ... I have to ensure that I do not compromise on their finnage too.

[kennho]

Ok Chris, I need to read up more on this liao. Too chim. Conducting basic theory for beginner ?

Anyway, I got a spawn of yellow and 50% are red fins light body, and the rest are clear. Problem I know is that the female is a yellow from an orange spawn slightly darker coloration compare to a translucent yellow male. The male unknown.

If I going to continue from this line with 2 selected yellow F1, I would still continue to get those red fins type right ?

[Chris Yew]

Hi Kenneth,
Your Red fins light body - you mean cambodian Red?
The parents : Female - Yellow from Orange spawn.
The Male is a Yellow pheno fish too?

[kennho]

The problem is I dunno how this yellow comes about. Only Kelvin know as I got it from him. The female is a confirmed orangexorange spawn but came out yellow color.

So far the fries that showing red fins looks very much like cambodian. Deep red coloring which include the pectoral, anal, dosal, caudal and ventral are red.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Kenneth,
What I mean is the male parent also Yellow?[eb]

[kennho]

Yup, a yellow.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Kenneth,
I must stressed that I'm no genetic expert too, haha. What I'm posting is juz what I've read and learned, and always take it as nothing is absolute. Let's share and discuss;

OK, so your Yellow x Yellow (orange parents) give you 50% cambodian Red and 50% clear (assumed it's yellow right?).

It is known that;
1. Yellow x Yellow may give Cambodian Red.
2. Cambodian Red x Cambodian Red may give Yellow too.

Cambodians and yellows are recessive but may carry each other's geno types.

So your cambodians must have Yellow gene. Some claimed that Cambodians to yellows is a good cross to keep the yellow color a intense yellow. If you only spawn yellow to yellow -it will usually get real pale - almost a whitish yellow in color but very clear.

Also not forgetting your spawn also carry that nr2 Orange gene. So subseqent spawn may also result in Orange as well. nr2 is also recessive but more complex than nr1 Yellow.
[8D]


quote:Originally posted by kennho

Ok Chris, I need to read up more on this liao. Too chim. Conducting basic theory for beginner ?

Anyway, I got a spawn of yellow and 50% are red fins light body, and the rest are clear. Problem I know is that the female is a yellow from an orange spawn slightly darker coloration compare to a translucent yellow male. The male unknown.

If I going to continue from this line with 2 selected yellow F1, I would still continue to get those red fins type right ?

[kennho]

Actually I have a few spawns that throw out cambodian pattern. My 2 pairs red/red devil plakat spawn threw out a few cambodian out of 300+ fries with creamy white body red fins. The latest is the yellow but the cambodian bodies don't have that creamy white coloration. More to slightly pale yellow.

So what is cambodian coloration ?

Actual fact is that I am trying to obtain a bright yellow instead of this pale yellow. Since so many yellow coloration, how would I go about selecting the pairing ?

[Chris Yew]

Cambodian if I'm not wrong is a lighter shade of body color compared to the fins color. Of course, in the past there's onli cambodian red but now there are the various colors of cambodian. And these cambodians possess the cc genes.

So far none have actually give a good bright or deep or intense yellow especially without the black pigment. Juz like the Er Extended Red fish but yellow color instead of red. If you wish to achieve that, you may have to try out the various combinations like cambodian x yellow, yellow x yellow, etc... If your yellow consists of orange gene, then you will have more pairing to do.

A good color is juz as difficult to achieve as a HM.

[Kelvin Tan]

kenn
that yellow is ct male right? you cross with delta female?

[kennho]

Kelvin, yes, it's your yellow ct. The female is a yellow ct as well. Just started working on the F1 and already headache over the spawn. Let me continue this line and work out something by end of the year.

[Foo Hong]

Personally, I also suspect there could be[not proven 100%] that u get a darker yellow from camb red x yellow.

My current line of yellow is in F2. The original pair was male[1st at 1st NBC] which is a camb pale yellow type vs. a female from Ah San which came out of the red line and is cream yellow.

the offsprings are never as creamy as grandma. Hsu said it could be due to outdoor conditions at Ah San's farm which intensified the yellow tone.

Any challenges? [eb]

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Kelvin, yes, it's your yellow ct. The female is a yellow ct as well. Just started working on the F1 and already headache over the spawn. Let me continue this line and work out something by end of the year.

[Mark Choon]

on the topic of yellows....

what are your views on crosses that are suitable for yellow?

i asked sam yesterday and he said pineapples are not advisable...
just wondering y that is the case also... is it the black pigmentation that pineapples have?

[Samuel Phan]

Was mentioned by some other breeders that pineapple is only suited for crossing with another pineapple.

Crossing to any other colours (incl. yellow) will give multis and cambodians.

Maybe members here can share their findings ...

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

[Sebas]

Maybe someone good with the nr thingy can show us the light.
But heres my thoughts, since we are breeding yellows and achieving for as pure a yellow as possible, i wouldnt take the risk and breed it to a pineapple. Possible reason might be that the black pigments on the pineapples may be passed onto the offsprings. And even if it disappears in the F1, it will reappear in F2 (dominant, recessive).

[Myron Tay]

Just to add that yellows make use of the cambodian gene to remove the black scales problem from the yellows. This is possible since the difference in the contrast between the body and fins of the reds are less obvious and is not too much of a contrast in the yellows.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

Hi Kenneth,
I must stressed that I'm no genetic expert too, haha. What I'm posting is juz what I've read and learned, and always take it as nothing is absolute. Let's share and discuss;

OK, so your Yellow x Yellow (orange parents) give you 50% cambodian Red and 50% clear (assumed it's yellow right?).

It is known that;
1. Yellow x Yellow may give Cambodian Red.
2. Cambodian Red x Cambodian Red may give Yellow too.

Cambodians and yellows are recessive but may carry each other's geno types.

So your cambodians must have Yellow gene. Some claimed that Cambodians to yellows is a good cross to keep the yellow color a intense yellow. If you only spawn yellow to yellow -it will usually get real pale - almost a whitish yellow in color but very clear.

Also not forgetting your spawn also carry that nr2 Orange gene. So subseqent spawn may also result in Orange as well. nr2 is also recessive but more complex than nr1 Yellow.
[8D]


quote:Originally posted by kennho

Ok Chris, I need to read up more on this liao. Too chim. Conducting basic theory for beginner ?

Anyway, I got a spawn of yellow and 50% are red fins light body, and the rest are clear. Problem I know is that the female is a yellow from an orange spawn slightly darker coloration compare to a translucent yellow male. The male unknown.

If I going to continue from this line with 2 selected yellow F1, I would still continue to get those red fins type right ?

[Myron Tay]

Just to add that yellows make use of the cambodian gene to remove the black scales problem from the yellows. This is possible since the difference in the contrast between the body and fins of the reds are less obvious and is not too much of a contrast in the yellows.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

Hi Kenneth,
I must stressed that I'm no genetic expert too, haha. What I'm posting is juz what I've read and learned, and always take it as nothing is absolute. Let's share and discuss;

OK, so your Yellow x Yellow (orange parents) give you 50% cambodian Red and 50% clear (assumed it's yellow right?).

It is known that;
1. Yellow x Yellow may give Cambodian Red.
2. Cambodian Red x Cambodian Red may give Yellow too.

Cambodians and yellows are recessive but may carry each other's geno types.

So your cambodians must have Yellow gene. Some claimed that Cambodians to yellows is a good cross to keep the yellow color a intense yellow. If you only spawn yellow to yellow -it will usually get real pale - almost a whitish yellow in color but very clear.

Also not forgetting your spawn also carry that nr2 Orange gene. So subseqent spawn may also result in Orange as well. nr2 is also recessive but more complex than nr1 Yellow.
[8D]


quote:Originally posted by kennho

Ok Chris, I need to read up more on this liao. Too chim. Conducting basic theory for beginner ?

Anyway, I got a spawn of yellow and 50% are red fins light body, and the rest are clear. Problem I know is that the female is a yellow from an orange spawn slightly darker coloration compare to a translucent yellow male. The male unknown.

If I going to continue from this line with 2 selected yellow F1, I would still continue to get those red fins type right ?

[unclejunkin]

Hi All,I wish people would not breed Cambodian into Yellows ,to much work to get the fish yellow again.
Unclejunkin

[Myron Tay]

So it affects the yellows as well huh? Like in the reds, in which the cambodian gene produces a paler body (as compared to the fins)?

quote:Originally posted by unclejunkin

Hi All,I wish people would not breed Cambodian into Yellows ,to much work to get the fish yellow again.
Unclejunkin

[unclejunkin]

quote:Originally posted by unclejunkin

Hi All,I wish people would not breed Cambodian into Yellows ,to much work to get the fish yellow again.
Unclejunkin
quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

So it affects the yellows as well huh? Like in the reds, in which the cambodian gene produces a paler body (as compared to the fins)?


You Got It.Unclejunkin

[Chris Yew]

Yellow is not and never a single gene. Yellow consists of cambodian gene too. That's what gives the yellow betta a paler body. If without the cambodian gene, it will be either light brown or dark brown color like chocolate betta.

You can see that the rays at the caudal are getting slight brownish in color for this Yellow betta;
http://www.bettasonli.com/images/Winning%20Bettas/nbca7-3.jpg

Factors affecting yellow;
http://www.bettasonli.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=General;action=display;num=10700063 89;start=0#0

[Myron Tay]

I disagree, Chris. Without the cambodian gene, you would have a yellow betta with black scales, like in the following picture:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron%20Tay/200453145836_Yellow%20HM.jpg

I believe that Dr Lucas was referring to the fact that the pure yellow betta might be the result of several genes. And one of the ways to get rid of the black scales is to use the cambodian gene. But that has the problem of reducing the intensity of the yellow as pointed out by Uncle Junkin. (Have you seen the intensity of the yellows at the recent Aquarama?)

I guess we are all still scratching our heads on how to effectively remove the black scales without sacrificing the intensity. One solution is to use the blonde gene (as in the reds). But that only serves to reduce the amount of black and not remove it totally.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

Yellow consists of cambodian gene too. That's what gives the yellow betta a paler body. If without the cambodian gene, it will be either light brown or dark brown color like chocolate betta.

[Chris Yew]

Didn't I said these;
"Yellow consists of cambodian gene too. That's what gives the yellow betta a paler body. If without the cambodian gene, it will be either light brown or dark brown color like chocolate betta."
???

So where can the blonde gene be found? You got the hint?

[Chris Yew]

Another point;
Yellow bettas are homozygous for nr1(yellow), but are also homozygous for cambodia (c) and extended red (Er).

[Myron Tay]

Believe some of the red lines have them. I have not selectively bred my line for them, but I believe that my line contains the blonde gene. I believe the following betta from my line shows potential in this regard (this was taken about a month ago. It has since reached more than 170 degree caudal spread when fully flaring). Need your thoughts on whether he might carry the blonde gene:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/photoalbum/Myron%20Tay/Blonde%20Red.jpg

The blonde gene is recessive so if you do not selectively breed for it, chances are you would lose it because they are so difficult to observe.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

So where can the blonde gene be found? You got the hint?

[Chris Yew]

The blonde gene you mentioned is to reduce the black but not eliminating it. The black edge on the scale of yellow will usually appear as the fish age but seldom appear in a younger fish.

So if your Extended Red fish has the least black pigment, that should be the ideal fish to cross with.

But again, there are more than 1 way to achieve Yellow or better Yellow (Orange is also very similar to Yellow except it's nr2 instead of nr1);
http://www.bettasonli.com/gallery/albums/album02/F1ALemonYellowChiffon1.jpg
http://www.bettasonli.com/gallery/albums/album04/F2COrangeChiffon1.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Oh I see. It was four months old when the picture was taken (fished him out of the community tank. Probably undernourished). It would be five months old when I bring him down for 3rd NBC. Maybe we can discuss further then. :D

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

The blonde gene you mentioned is to reduce the black but not eliminating it. The black edge on the scale of yellow will usually appear as the fish age but seldom appear in a younger fish.

So if your Extended Red fish has the least black pigment, that should be the ideal fish to cross with.

[Myron Tay]

Chris,

This is a very interesting fish in terms of the intensity with no black. Doesn't look like it carries the cambodian gene. Not sure if it is one in a million, but it was recently at Aquarama. I think it carries the blonde gene.

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453152621_Orange CT.jpg

[Chris Yew]

See the body carefully. I've seen this fish at Aquarama but it doesn't impress me at all compared to others. Do you still recall the actual orange intensity of the fish at the show compared to the photos shown here?

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Chris,

This is a very interesting fish in terms of the intensity with no black.

[Phil]

Guys you can obtain yellow from orange and vice versa if you do selective color breeding. Anyway the above fish is what I would call random ray rather than semi cross. Actually its finnage is in disarray.

[Myron Tay]

But Chris the fish does not have the intensity of the original yellow colour. Dr Lucas argued twenty years ago that this is one of the implications of using the cambodian gene. This combination produces a pale / ghostly yellow, not the ideal intense yellow. What do you think?

Pineapples have a better yellow in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

The blonde gene you mentioned is to reduce the black but not eliminating it. The black edge on the scale of yellow will usually appear as the fish age but seldom appear in a younger fish.

So if your Extended Red fish has the least black pigment, that should be the ideal fish to cross with.

But again, there are more than 1 way to achieve Yellow or better Yellow (Orange is also very similar to Yellow except it's nr2 instead of nr1);
http://www.bettasonli.com/gallery/albums/album02/F1ALemonYellowChiffon1.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Oops. Missed the fish at Aquarama.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

See the body carefully. I've seen this fish at Aquarama but it doesn't impress me at all compared to others. Do you still recall the actual orange intensity of the fish at the show compared to the photos shown here?

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Chris,

This is a very interesting fish in terms of the intensity with no black.

[Chris Yew]

The pictures shown is to tell that there are many ways to achieve yellow and orange.

BTW, as that fish age, the yellow on body got more intense in color. Most of my Chiffons as they aged, the color got more intense.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

But Chris the fish does not have the intensity of the original yellow colour. Dr Lucas argued twenty years ago that this is one of the implications of using the cambodian gene. This combination produces a pale / ghostly yellow, not the ideal intense yellow. What do you think?

Pineapples have a better yellow in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

The blonde gene you mentioned is to reduce the black but not eliminating it. The black edge on the scale of yellow will usually appear as the fish age but seldom appear in a younger fish.

So if your Extended Red fish has the least black pigment, that should be the ideal fish to cross with.

But again, there are more than 1 way to achieve Yellow or better Yellow (Orange is also very similar to Yellow except it's nr2 instead of nr1);
http://www.bettasonli.com/gallery/albums/album02/F1ALemonYellowChiffon1.jpg

[sylwester]

I've been reading a lot about yellow bettas lately and found out that all sites agree that there is homogeneous nr(1) which eleminate the red, but for the cambodian gene they seem to differ. The sites classify yellows as #1 or #2.

1: Yellow nrnr/c+, chocolate nrnr/++ and yellow cambodian nrnr/cc
2: Yellow nrnr/cc, chocolate nrnr/c+ and nrnr/++

The first suggest that a cross between sibling yellow will result in 50% yellow, 25% chocolate and 25% yellow cambodians. The second will always breed true for cambodian and non-red.

If #1 is true it might explain different intensities of red on an Extended red cross that might have yellow and cmabo geno. That would also indicate that it is possible to spot hetrogeneous cambodian in a fish looking at the differences of the intensity of red and make it possible to get homogeneous red if the darkest reds are crossed after continued spawn between redxyellow to make less iricedens.

Pineapple was mentioned in the thread http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2385 by Myron that pineapplesxyellow would make pineapple in F1. I assume that he thinks chocolate and pineapple as the same genetic wise on black and that #2 is used.

Any comments to this. I would like other members experience as I won't be able to confirm #1 or #2 until october I guess.

[Myron Tay]

I am on the #2 camp. However, I believe that it is possible though difficult to produce a yellow betta (not chocolate or pineapple) without using the cambodian gene. This is done through careful selective breeding involving the blonde gene and / or genes that do not follow the simple mendalian rules of inheritance that reduce the level of black pigement on the betta without reducing its intensity.

I also do note the existance of another yellow gene (NR2) which is discussed on the following thread, though I have not actually seen such a fish in the flesh: http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2385