Inbreeding / line breeding / back crossing

[Foo Hong]

part 1 - what is what

Pls correct me if wrong. Just kicking off this thread.

Both refer to breeding within the same family group, or line as it is called. In breeding = siblings crosses. back crossing means either son x mother/grandma/ etc or daughter x dad/grand dad/etc. Both called in-breeding.

part 2 - why line breed?

....to be cont'd

[Chris Yew]

Maybe to add to the confusion, we should also include out-crossing. Why the need to Out-Cross when doing Line Breeding, and most important - what actually is Out-Crossing?

Let's discuss more in detail. I may be wrong (or most probably wrong, ha ha), so correct me if so.

Line Breeding is carry out to improve on an existing strain or can be used to develop a new strain. To improve means like we want to have a HM Red from what we are currently having now - mainly super deltas Red and inferior colour. Developing a new strain - probably means like solid orange, solid purple or maybe solid pink; but these must be able to breed true inorder to qualify as new strain.

So In breed or Back Cross or even Out Cross is the process we used to achieve the Line Breeding objectives.

Pls carry on......next!

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com

[Foo Hong]

Chris,
think you have given the best 'short and straight to the point' answer for ' why line-breed'. Part2 is done. Maybe even part-3 as outcrossing is also discussed.

So who wants to do the part 4 of this thread.

[Samuel Phan]

Just to dig out this topic again ...

Can anyone put this in lay-man terms ...

And is anyone doing it here in Singapore ... or are we simply doing crossings constantly?

quote:
Chris,
think you have given the best 'short and straight to the point' answer for ' why line-breed'. Part2 is done. Maybe even part-3 as outcrossing is also discussed.

So who wants to do the part 4 of this thread.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Yes me! Just breed best to best...worry the rest later <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

So basically not line-breeding ... just find 2 fishes with the best look and sawn them?

So the new line that you have created with have mixed blood-line ... in such case ... how many generations to stablize the new line?

quote:
Yes me! Just breed best to best...worry the rest later <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

My approach is to in-breed/line breed anything from 3 to 6 different pairings in any generation using the best males/females. These permutations 'widens' the gene pool to prevent inbreeding problems. Not sure if this 'formula' will work well in the long run, but so far so good for me.

[Samuel Phan]

So I assume that your Irids will probably have Artison, Bonnie, Jack Lewin, Peter Goettner blood in them?

Do you also try to maintain a pure line so as to use them for specific experimental spawns?

Btw ... is the Irids that I got from Roy a pure Artison line?

quote:
My approach is to in-breed/line breed anything from 3 to 6 different pairings in any generation using the best males/females. These permutations 'widens' the gene pool to prevent inbreeding problems. Not sure if this 'formula' will work well in the long run, but so far so good for me.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[imported_n/a]

By using more pairing, does it means that the need for out-crossing is reduce. Normally how many generations can a line sustain before it will required out-crossing?

Best regards
CK Ong
quote:
My approach is to in-breed/line breed anything from 3 to 6 different pairings in any generation using the best males/females. These permutations 'widens' the gene pool to prevent inbreeding problems. Not sure if this 'formula' will work well in the long run, but so far so good for me.

[Samuel Phan]

I dun think so ... it is basically still close-blood marriage.
As for no of generations ... I was told 12. But maybe 10 will safer.

Also ... look for signs of degeneration of the line when you see that the fishes looks weaker than before and have problem spawning ... it is time to look for potential candidates to out-cross your line .... else you will lose it very soon.

quote:
By using more pairing, does it means that the need for out-crossing is reduce. Normally how many generations can a line sustain before it will required out-crossing?

Best regards
CK Ong
quote:
My approach is to in-breed/line breed anything from 3 to 6 different pairings in any generation using the best males/females. These permutations 'widens' the gene pool to prevent inbreeding problems. Not sure if this 'formula' will work well in the long run, but so far so good for me.







Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

I am working several main irdis lines -

L1 - 25% Yu, 50% PG, 25% Atison
L2 - 50% Tu, 50% PG
L3 - 25% Yu, 50% PG, 25% Tyler [ line may be dropped ]
L4 - L1 x L2

I intend to work L4 as a main line down the road, but with a few sub lines. I ll worry abt line problems later cos so far the line gets better with each succesive generation.

[Samuel Phan]

As for me ... what I am currently working on ...

L1 - 25% Yu, 25% Bonnie, 50% Straits
L2 - 25% Yu, 25% Bonnie, 50% Artison
L3 - 100% Artison

quote:
I am working several main irdis lines -

L1 - 25% Yu, 50% PG, 25% Atison
L2 - 50% Tu, 50% PG
L3 - 25% Yu, 50% PG, 25% Tyler [ line may be dropped ]
L4 - L1 x L2

I intend to work L4 as a main line down the road, but with a few sub lines. I ll worry abt line problems later cos so far the line gets better with each succesive generation.



Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Richard Yu line is Bonnie line. If you got it from Nichol, it was me who told him that the steel/melano were from Dyna, who got from Yu who got from Bonnie, who retired!

[Samuel Phan]

So that means ...

L1 - 50% Yu, 50% Straits
L2 - 50% Yu, 50% Artison
L3 - 100% Artison

Correct?

quote:
Richard Yu line is Bonnie line. If you got it from Nichol, it was me who told him that the steel/melano were from Dyna, who got from Yu who got from Bonnie, who retired!


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Yep.

Just on this subject. Actually once you F2 the line it is almost yr own line already bcos the fish shld be rather different from the original stock.

[Foo Hong]

To answer Myron s question, its very much a chicken/egg problem to me.

in-breed :- improve line traits but ...weaken the line eventually?
out-cross :- strengthen or rejuvenate the line, but the line suffers a bit in terms of quality of form?

So how? Ever asked how the better breeders maintain their lines?

[Myron Tay]

Also, Sam suggested 10-12 generations at most. Question: if you cross the daughter back to the father, does that count as the 3rd generation?

[Foo Hong]

dont know what its called..ha! but u r still breeding within the line.

[Myron Tay]

Just an observation that I would like to share:

Noticed that the normal red HM that I had obtained from Sarawut was a good father and was large. He also did not eat the eggs and hence I had a spawn that was close to 200 from him. Believe that for extended reds, we see bad fathers which eat the eggs and are typically smaller. The resulting spawns are also smaller. This does not happen in the wild as the larger more caring males tend to produce bigger spawns and hence, there are more of similar bettas around in the wild.

I beseech all to be aware of this and take steps to avoid introducing such weaknesses when we are inbreeding. Better to use a larger more caring male and have more patience.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

Hi all,

Inbreeding refers to breeding between siblings while linebreeding refers to breeding between offsprings to parents. please correct me or add on if i'm wrong or did not give a complete picture. thank you. for those who may not understand, this is a brief description of both.

now, we have heard a lot about these two possible methods in consolidating a particular line. but what are the downsides of a long-term program using either both methods? anyone can offer their perspective?
Alex

I guess your question is answered by the latest "Bettas... and More" column by Dr Leo Buss in the Mar 04 edition of FAMA magazine (I hope he does not mind me sharing the information on this forum). His conclusion is that inbreeding is not going to be a problem if two things happen: there are enough breeders and the breeders share their breeders with each other for outcrossing purposes.

Since breeders do periodically outcross to each other's line, the question arises as to what is the number of breeders that is large enough to insure against the loss of genetic variation. Dr Leo Buss suggests that some genetic variation may be lost by chance, at the rate of about 1/2N, where N is the number of breeders. Hence, if there are 25 breeders the chance of losing some genetic variation by chance is about 2%. Believe that this 2% represents an expected (or average) outcome over several groups.

The article is filled with other useful information and I would encourage all to get a copy of the Mar 04 edition of FAMA. Better yet, subscribe to it! It would be worth your investment.

Hence, my conclusion is simple: getting more breeders into your community is going to help you in increasing the genetic diversity of your lines! I think this is where this forum would help: by facilitating a wider range of contacts that would help to allow a greater exchange of bettas globally!

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

Hi all,

Inbreeding refers to breeding between siblings while linebreeding refers to breeding between offsprings to parents. please correct me or add on if i'm wrong or did not give a complete picture. thank you. for those who may not understand, this is a brief description of both.

now, we have heard a lot about these two possible methods in consolidating a particular line. but what are the downsides of a long-term program using either both methods? anyone can offer their perspective?
Alex

I guess your question is answered by the latest "Bettas... and More" column by Dr Leo Buss in the Mar 04 edition of FAMA magazine (I hope he does not mind me sharing the information on this forum). His conclusion is that inbreeding is not going to be a problem if two things happen: there are enough breeders and the breeders share their breeders with each other for outcrossing purposes.

Since breeders do periodically outcross to each other's line, the question arises as to what is the number of breeders that is large enough to insure against the loss of genetic variation. Dr Leo Buss suggests that some genetic variation may be lost by chance, at the rate of about 1/2N, where N is the number of breeders. Hence, if there are 25 breeders the chance of losing some genetic variation by chance is about 2%. Believe that this 2% represents an expected (or average) outcome over several groups.

The article is filled with other useful information and I would encourage all to get a copy of the Mar 04 edition of FAMA. Better yet, subscribe to it! It would be worth your investment.

Hence, my conclusion is simple: getting more breeders into your community is going to help you in increasing the genetic diversity of your lines! I think this is where this forum would help: by facilitating a wider range of contacts that would help to allow a greater exchange of bettas globally!

[Alex Lim]

ahh... finally, someone answered my forgotten question~ :D Myron, thanks very much for providing this valuable insight. cheers~

[Alex Lim]

ahh... finally, someone answered my forgotten question~ :D Myron, thanks very much for providing this valuable insight. cheers~

[Myron Tay]

More thoughts on the problem of line-breeding / in-breeding / back crossing:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=947

[Myron Tay]

One of the advantages of inbreeding is that your lines become more predictable, distinctive and your spawn becomes more identical as elaborated in the following article by Dr Leo Buss:

http://www.famamagazine.com/e/env/0001FMSxGMqokoku308U908/secure/login.html?link=/framepagesecure.html&item=jul2003:f-cl-bta-072003-1

UserID:guest
Password:guest

[Myron Tay]

One of the advantages of inbreeding is that your lines become more predictable, distinctive and your spawn becomes more identical as elaborated in the following article by Dr Leo Buss:

http://www.famamagazine.com/e/env/0001FMSxGMqokoku308U908/secure/login.html?link=/framepagesecure.html&item=jul2003:f-cl-bta-072003-1

UserID:guest
Password:guest

[David Esguerra]

One of the disadvantages though is that if you do it too much, you'd have your own set of problems with your line as hidden genetic deformities may arise. Also, heavily inbred animals (not limited to just fish or bettas for that matter) tend to lose their vigor, immunity and generally become weaker. Its not a sure thing that inbred animals would become weaker though the risk is there.

I'm not against inbreeding but inbreeding could be easily misused or overused and this is what I always caution betta breeders against.

[David Esguerra]

One of the disadvantages though is that if you do it too much, you'd have your own set of problems with your line as hidden genetic deformities may arise. Also, heavily inbred animals (not limited to just fish or bettas for that matter) tend to lose their vigor, immunity and generally become weaker. Its not a sure thing that inbred animals would become weaker though the risk is there.

I'm not against inbreeding but inbreeding could be easily misused or overused and this is what I always caution betta breeders against.

[Wayne]

Hmm, can someone share why inbreeding will polute the gene pool in animals/fish....etc?

p/s: I got the answer in other thread. :)

[Wayne]

Hmm, can someone share why inbreeding will polute the gene pool in animals/fish....etc?

p/s: I got the answer in other thread. :)

[Alex Lim]

Wayne,

not sure if you understand already or not especially with the small note you added. it is not polluted in the sense you are inferring to.

when one inbreed, heterozygous genes become homozygous.. those genes that are unable to "link up" with another of the same is kicked out of the gene pool. sort of like, when we marry a person, it must be done as a pairing right? if unable to find pairing, what happens? one is "left on the shelf" or in other words, becomes left out. this same reasoning can be argued for basic mendalian genetics, if the gene is left out, it is considered lost. as you inbreed further and the process of "heterozygousity" and "homozygousity" continues, more and more genes get lost from the original gene pool. as result, gene pool becomes smaller and more limited. along with the genes comes with certain accompanying traits (positive and negative, there's no such thing as all-positive or all-negative) such as weakened immunity, weaker colours etc which may become stronger as other opposing genes are lost. these accompanying traits hence, either becomes stronger or weaker either with the loss of more genes or addition of more genes, depending on the cross.

as a more practical example, the Chinese (and many races) are often advised not to marry someone of the same surname, because they may have been descendants sometime back. the thing is if two members of the same surname of the opposing sex get married, it may cause certain inherited diseases such as Parkinson's and etc. if i have a gene causing Parkinsons' (homozygous) while my respective spouse does not carry the gene (non-homozygous) then one of the genes or alleles is passed down to our offsprings. if in the near future and assuming there is incest within my family, then their offsprings will carry both alleles of the Parkinson causing gene, which means all of their children will eventually get the disease, according to simple genetics in theory that is. so, to prevent such as eventuality, we are often advised not to marry people of same surname to prevent such degenerations.

Wayne, hope you can understand (if i'm not misleading)

hope the genetic experts can correct me if im wrong (remember i'm a nutto?). and if i'm right, please do give me a clap to encourage me to dive more into genetics.. hahahahaha.. really appreciate it.

cheerz

[Alex Lim]

Wayne,

not sure if you understand already or not especially with the small note you added. it is not polluted in the sense you are inferring to.

when one inbreed, heterozygous genes become homozygous.. those genes that are unable to "link up" with another of the same is kicked out of the gene pool. sort of like, when we marry a person, it must be done as a pairing right? if unable to find pairing, what happens? one is "left on the shelf" or in other words, becomes left out. this same reasoning can be argued for basic mendalian genetics, if the gene is left out, it is considered lost. as you inbreed further and the process of "heterozygousity" and "homozygousity" continues, more and more genes get lost from the original gene pool. as result, gene pool becomes smaller and more limited. along with the genes comes with certain accompanying traits (positive and negative, there's no such thing as all-positive or all-negative) such as weakened immunity, weaker colours etc which may become stronger as other opposing genes are lost. these accompanying traits hence, either becomes stronger or weaker either with the loss of more genes or addition of more genes, depending on the cross.

as a more practical example, the Chinese (and many races) are often advised not to marry someone of the same surname, because they may have been descendants sometime back. the thing is if two members of the same surname of the opposing sex get married, it may cause certain inherited diseases such as Parkinson's and etc. if i have a gene causing Parkinsons' (homozygous) while my respective spouse does not carry the gene (non-homozygous) then one of the genes or alleles is passed down to our offsprings. if in the near future and assuming there is incest within my family, then their offsprings will carry both alleles of the Parkinson causing gene, which means all of their children will eventually get the disease, according to simple genetics in theory that is. so, to prevent such as eventuality, we are often advised not to marry people of same surname to prevent such degenerations.

Wayne, hope you can understand (if i'm not misleading)

hope the genetic experts can correct me if im wrong (remember i'm a nutto?). and if i'm right, please do give me a clap to encourage me to dive more into genetics.. hahahahaha.. really appreciate it.

cheerz

[Wayne]

Hi Alex, Thanks!! :D Okay, If my memory serve me right, my bio teacher mention poluting the gene pool. Ha, I hope he is not here to read my post!!

After reading Toh Chen Han's long and detail post on Inbreeding Depression, I believe i understand most part of it, and which really clear things up.

Okay, as I am digesting your reply, I am confuse about the gene being kick out thingy. I thought gene is never kicked out, but either pair up to become heterozygous or homozygous?? Thus gene pool will not be smaller? Sorry, I am blur as well [B)]Let's wait for genetics expert to jump in and hit us in the head!!:D

Okay, i am also a bit confuse about the type crossing and all that.
Let me summarize here, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Inbreed = siblings cross
Linebreed = offspring cross with parents
outcross = cross between different line (what if the two line are started by the same parents in two different spawn?)
back cross = so WTH is this??? [cnf]

[Wayne]

Hi Alex, Thanks!! :D Okay, If my memory serve me right, my bio teacher mention poluting the gene pool. Ha, I hope he is not here to read my post!!

After reading Toh Chen Han's long and detail post on Inbreeding Depression, I believe i understand most part of it, and which really clear things up.

Okay, as I am digesting your reply, I am confuse about the gene being kick out thingy. I thought gene is never kicked out, but either pair up to become heterozygous or homozygous?? Thus gene pool will not be smaller? Sorry, I am blur as well [B)]Let's wait for genetics expert to jump in and hit us in the head!!:D

Okay, i am also a bit confuse about the type crossing and all that.
Let me summarize here, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Inbreed = siblings cross
Linebreed = offspring cross with parents
outcross = cross between different line (what if the two line are started by the same parents in two different spawn?)
back cross = so WTH is this??? [cnf]

[David Esguerra]

Back cross is another term that could be used for linbreed just like crossbreed could be another term used for out cross.

As for genes being kicked out, this could only happen after a very long line of inbreeding, otherwise it would just be "burried" in the fish's genetic makeup.

Of course, mutation also plays a part with the "kicking off" of a gene. For one thing, with the degree of inbreeding in a lot of long tailed lines, it could be expected that if they still had the genes for shortfin that there would be some genetic backdrafts leading to a shortfinned fish from a long finned line. But since the long fin gene is a mutant gene, it virtually erased the short fin from its gene pool and hence you could not expect any short fins unless you cross a long fin to a short fin.

[David Esguerra]

Back cross is another term that could be used for linbreed just like crossbreed could be another term used for out cross.

As for genes being kicked out, this could only happen after a very long line of inbreeding, otherwise it would just be "burried" in the fish's genetic makeup.

Of course, mutation also plays a part with the "kicking off" of a gene. For one thing, with the degree of inbreeding in a lot of long tailed lines, it could be expected that if they still had the genes for shortfin that there would be some genetic backdrafts leading to a shortfinned fish from a long finned line. But since the long fin gene is a mutant gene, it virtually erased the short fin from its gene pool and hence you could not expect any short fins unless you cross a long fin to a short fin.

[sylwester]

Isn't linebreeding a more general case than back cross?

Back cross is indeed father daughter or mother son, but line breeding could be cousins or even half sisters/brothers.

If you do a cross between two lines that has been crossed 3 generations earlier and inbreed ever since I would even call that line breeding.

Likewise I would call it line breeding if you have just done an out cross and then cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents.

[sylwester]

Isn't linebreeding a more general case than back cross?

Back cross is indeed father daughter or mother son, but line breeding could be cousins or even half sisters/brothers.

If you do a cross between two lines that has been crossed 3 generations earlier and inbreed ever since I would even call that line breeding.

Likewise I would call it line breeding if you have just done an out cross and then cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents.

[Wayne]

Thanks David and Alex for the explanation. Yikes!! Alex I understand that (hmm, seems like my bio lesson has not gone to waste [col]). [bt] Well, my mind went somewhere else when you say "kicked out"!! [bt] But thanks for trying to make me understand by using laymen terms. :) Really helpful.

So we actually only have Linebreed, inbreed and crossbreed.

From many articles i read, linebreed is more frequently use then backcross. That's why I can't figure out what's backcross. [bh]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
If you do a cross between two lines that has been crossed 3 generations earlier and inbreed ever since I would even call that line breeding.

Eh....that's......abit complicated for my simple mind. :D
Okay, from my understandings, linebreed means using a fixed male or female to mate with their offspring. Forexample, we use a fixed male mate with a female. Then, we select a female from F1 and mate with the same male. THen, select F2 female and mate with the same male again..and again and again..........Does that confuse you? Am I correct?

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
Likewise I would call it line breeding if you have just done an out cross and then cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents.

Sylwester, after looking at your reply again, i think this statement of yours is the same as the case i am trying to explain above right? No?[B)]

[Wayne]

Thanks David and Alex for the explanation. Yikes!! Alex I understand that (hmm, seems like my bio lesson has not gone to waste [col]). [bt] Well, my mind went somewhere else when you say "kicked out"!! [bt] But thanks for trying to make me understand by using laymen terms. :) Really helpful.

So we actually only have Linebreed, inbreed and crossbreed.

From many articles i read, linebreed is more frequently use then backcross. That's why I can't figure out what's backcross. [bh]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
If you do a cross between two lines that has been crossed 3 generations earlier and inbreed ever since I would even call that line breeding.

Eh....that's......abit complicated for my simple mind. :D
Okay, from my understandings, linebreed means using a fixed male or female to mate with their offspring. Forexample, we use a fixed male mate with a female. Then, we select a female from F1 and mate with the same male. THen, select F2 female and mate with the same male again..and again and again..........Does that confuse you? Am I correct?

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
Likewise I would call it line breeding if you have just done an out cross and then cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents.

Sylwester, after looking at your reply again, i think this statement of yours is the same as the case i am trying to explain above right? No?[B)]

[sylwester]

quote:Sylwester, after looking at your reply again, i think this statement of yours is the same as the case i am trying to explain above right? No?
Not actually, because you are refering to a back cross while I'm refering to a cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents, and not one of the parents which would be a back cross. A back cross has less diversity.

quote:
(what if the two line are started by the same parents in two different spawn)

I forgot this one earlier. This would not become two lines at all. The siblings of the fist spawn will be siblings of the second. It's easier to see this if you think human siblings rather than big spawns.

[sylwester]

quote:Sylwester, after looking at your reply again, i think this statement of yours is the same as the case i am trying to explain above right? No?
Not actually, because you are refering to a back cross while I'm refering to a cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents, and not one of the parents which would be a back cross. A back cross has less diversity.

quote:
(what if the two line are started by the same parents in two different spawn)

I forgot this one earlier. This would not become two lines at all. The siblings of the fist spawn will be siblings of the second. It's easier to see this if you think human siblings rather than big spawns.

[Wayne]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
Not actually, because you are refering to a back cross while I'm refering to a cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents, and not one of the parents which would be a back cross. A back cross has less diversity.


Yikes[dr].....i hope some genetics expert would enlighten us on this. This is getting confusing. [dr]

quote:
Originally posted by sylwester
I forgot this one earlier. This would not become two lines at all. The siblings of the fist spawn will be siblings of the second. It's easier to see this if you think human siblings rather than big spawns.


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?

[Wayne]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester
Not actually, because you are refering to a back cross while I'm refering to a cross with one of the siblings of one of the parents, and not one of the parents which would be a back cross. A back cross has less diversity.


Yikes[dr].....i hope some genetics expert would enlighten us on this. This is getting confusing. [dr]

quote:
Originally posted by sylwester
I forgot this one earlier. This would not become two lines at all. The siblings of the fist spawn will be siblings of the second. It's easier to see this if you think human siblings rather than big spawns.


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?

[David Esguerra]

Nope, actually sylwester just put it in very simple terms...

Let me try to digest it a bit since I was the one who borught about the confusion in backcrossing...

Linebreeding is a much more general term than backcross. All backcrosses are considered linebreeding but not all variations of line breeding is considered as a back cross.

Back cross is crossing back a generation to a previous generation. For example son to mother or son to grandmother (not that easy in bettas but still quite possible.)

[David Esguerra]

Nope, actually sylwester just put it in very simple terms...

Let me try to digest it a bit since I was the one who borught about the confusion in backcrossing...

Linebreeding is a much more general term than backcross. All backcrosses are considered linebreeding but not all variations of line breeding is considered as a back cross.

Back cross is crossing back a generation to a previous generation. For example son to mother or son to grandmother (not that easy in bettas but still quite possible.)

[sylwester]

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?


Correct. They will not be more diverse than if you compared two fries in the same spawn. Because of recombination all fries are unique.

My sister and I are siblings, but not from same spawn :)

[sylwester]

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?


Correct. They will not be more diverse than if you compared two fries in the same spawn. Because of recombination all fries are unique.

My sister and I are siblings, but not from same spawn :)

[Wayne]

Thanks David, that clear thigns up alot. :)

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?


Correct. They will not be more diverse than if you compared two fries in the same spawn. Because of recombination all fries are unique.

My sister and I are siblings, but not from same spawn :)

LOL!! Right, same spawn you will become twins. Hmm, it means that if it is useless to buy two pair from the breeder to for spawning (as most probably it is from same spawn same parent.), and what we should do is buy one pair from different breeder and make sure both of the pair are of different line. Hmm, but breeder themself should have keep multiple line to keep their line going. May be can just tell him we need two pair, each from different line?

But still the safest is to buy from two different breeder?

[Wayne]

Thanks David, that clear thigns up alot. :)

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


Sylwester, you mean both Siblings from spawn 1 and spawn 2 will have almost the same gene set inherited from the parents so they can't be consider two lines at all?


Correct. They will not be more diverse than if you compared two fries in the same spawn. Because of recombination all fries are unique.

My sister and I are siblings, but not from same spawn :)

LOL!! Right, same spawn you will become twins. Hmm, it means that if it is useless to buy two pair from the breeder to for spawning (as most probably it is from same spawn same parent.), and what we should do is buy one pair from different breeder and make sure both of the pair are of different line. Hmm, but breeder themself should have keep multiple line to keep their line going. May be can just tell him we need two pair, each from different line?

But still the safest is to buy from two different breeder?

[sylwester]

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


LOL!! Right, same spawn you will become twins. Hmm, it means that if it is useless to buy two pair from the breeder to for spawning (as most probably it is from same spawn same parent.), and what we should do is buy one pair from different breeder and make sure both of the pair are of different line. Hmm, but breeder themself should have keep multiple line to keep their line going. May be can just tell him we need two pair, each from different line?

But still the safest is to buy from two different breeder?


If you buy fish from big breeders like Wasan I guess you won't get siblings at all since they are quality sorted.

As for small breeders they usually keep different closely related lines for line breeding and ocationally outcross to start up new lines for the future. They probably have more info about the pedigree of the fish you purchase too.

[sylwester]

quote:Originally posted by Wayne


LOL!! Right, same spawn you will become twins. Hmm, it means that if it is useless to buy two pair from the breeder to for spawning (as most probably it is from same spawn same parent.), and what we should do is buy one pair from different breeder and make sure both of the pair are of different line. Hmm, but breeder themself should have keep multiple line to keep their line going. May be can just tell him we need two pair, each from different line?

But still the safest is to buy from two different breeder?


If you buy fish from big breeders like Wasan I guess you won't get siblings at all since they are quality sorted.

As for small breeders they usually keep different closely related lines for line breeding and ocationally outcross to start up new lines for the future. They probably have more info about the pedigree of the fish you purchase too.

[Wayne]

Hmm, thanks for the info. :D Will be very helpful in the near future.

[Wayne]

Hmm, thanks for the info. :D Will be very helpful in the near future.