Foo Hong's Experience with White Halfmoons

[Myron Tay]

Could I invite Foo Hong to share his experience in producing his line?

[Foo Hong]

Oh the story goes in 10 episode. Heres episode one.

one - fell in luve with Faith's holy grail. flew all the way to Los Angeles and walked into her home at 7 am to buy fish!!![idiot]. Spawned her pair[I selected, tho not many to pick from]....sold to everyone in Singapore. used the $$ to buy more whites...this time a pair from Peter Goettner. Male died after aquarama 2001 :(. Crossed the best male holy grail to Peter's female>>>> result...like shit!

end of episode 1.

[derrick kuah]

Foohong , it is ,always the same when we cross diff lines .I alway have this problem when i outcross. even with my unrelated line. for blue ,always red washes(like shit). when ,i first started out . i actually wanted long anal fin from "a" fish.cross it to my line. results..good anal fin but not a single clean fries.dump the lot.Now ,try to keep some good fries ,to do f2(am i right)whenever i outcross.

[Foo Hong]

yeah. in some ways it is true.

Cos whenever u 'outcross' u are introducing something u are not sure, which may not be necessarily good.

Ok here s episode 2 -
The Holy grail x goettner spawn was outrageous....and smallish in size due to the holy grail fish....Cull all.....yes all !
--------------
The good old Dickson Lai, my once upon a time 'partner' went crazy and started a buying spree. Paid over USD200 for a white HM from Jack Lewin. Except for some clear areas in caudal, fish was almost perfect and had a good hold in his caudal whenever he flares. We bred this male to goettner's female....ta da! ...well just as shitty as the HG x Pg spawn. but fishes were bigger overall.

Most of the F1 had poor colour and dirty colours here and there. ie, not 100% white. meanwhile dickson gave up and I continued. And 2 pairs where chosen to do F2. The males bear 170 caudals. Several spawns were made from these pairs and got 400 to 500 fries. The results of F2.....[to be contuned]

[Foo Hong]

Continued.........

It is a sight to behold to watch 400 or so white 1.5 inch bettas swimming in yr tanks. now comes the painful part...culling.

Fishes were culled in following order

colour - red/blue/black pigmnets on body n fins. Those on inner gills only were spared. Those with excessive clear fin areas were also culled.

form - those that lack straight caudal edges were culled. also culled were those with dropping dorsals, anals that does not pull forward, short bodies, tails too long or reaches 50/50 with body.

believe it or not from above exercise, I was down from 400 to 25 fishes, or about 5 to 6 %....ouch!

Most of remaining stock had ......one very important traits....the WHITE COLOUR. In terms of finnage, The tails bear [at that stage] 8 rays splits, dorsals had 2 rays splits, and anal somehow pulls forward though not really broad.

Several pairs were F3-ed.....

[Foo Hong]

Continued.........

It is a sight to behold to watch 400 or so white 1.5 inch bettas swimming in yr tanks. now comes the painful part...culling.

Fishes were culled in following order

colour - red/blue/black pigmnets on body n fins. Those on inner gills only were spared. Those with excessive clear fin areas were also culled.

form - those that lack straight caudal edges were culled. also culled were those with dropping dorsals, anals that does not pull forward, short bodies, tails too long or reaches 50/50 with body.

believe it or not from above exercise, I was down from 400 to 25 fishes, or about 5 to 6 %....ouch!

Most of remaining stock had ......one very important traits....the WHITE COLOUR. In terms of finnage, The tails bear [at that stage] 8 rays splits, dorsals had 2 rays splits, and anal somehow pulls forward though not really broad.

Several pairs were F3-ed.....

[Foo Hong]

My memory is quite bad and I couldnt recall if it was this F3 generation or was it the next F4....anyway there was a great improvemnet in colour in the line. Almost 80 or so were near perfect in colour, ie, no clear fins, no blue, no black, no red. Finnage in some fishes were also great with about 20% or so males showing 180 caudals, 16 ray branching. A few actually showed 4 ray dorsal and 2 rays anal....

This leave me with a lot of satisfaction, and hence focuing more on the finnage and form there on. I am currently breeding on the line using males and females that are white from borth till the die.....I expect 95% colour perfection in my current spawn...which is dont know F what already...ha! And I could now focus on developing overhalfmoons and STM HM with 4 to 8 rays dorsals.....

I love white HMs!

[Foo Hong]

My memory is quite bad and I couldnt recall if it was this F3 generation or was it the next F4....anyway there was a great improvemnet in colour in the line. Almost 80 or so were near perfect in colour, ie, no clear fins, no blue, no black, no red. Finnage in some fishes were also great with about 20% or so males showing 180 caudals, 16 ray branching. A few actually showed 4 ray dorsal and 2 rays anal....

This leave me with a lot of satisfaction, and hence focuing more on the finnage and form there on. I am currently breeding on the line using males and females that are white from borth till the die.....I expect 95% colour perfection in my current spawn...which is dont know F what already...ha! And I could now focus on developing overhalfmoons and STM HM with 4 to 8 rays dorsals.....

I love white HMs!

[Kelvin Tan]

Is yr champion white from yr line? Cos a fren mention it look like a thai fish.... just wondering.

anyway my experience with white was much better cos they gave me 100% white with no wash at all from i started whites, but as white finnage doesnt hold that well and i dun cull, so its discouraging to keep maintaining the line.....

[Kelvin Tan]

Is yr champion white from yr line? Cos a fren mention it look like a thai fish.... just wondering.

anyway my experience with white was much better cos they gave me 100% white with no wash at all from i started whites, but as white finnage doesnt hold that well and i dun cull, so its discouraging to keep maintaining the line.....

[Myron Tay]

Then you should share with us the shifu who got your line started. :D

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

Is yr champion white from yr line? Cos a fren mention it look like a thai fish.... just wondering.

anyway my experience with white was much better cos they gave me 100% white with no wash at all from i started whites, but as white finnage doesnt hold that well and i dun cull, so its discouraging to keep maintaining the line.....

[Myron Tay]

Then you should share with us the shifu who got your line started. :D

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

Is yr champion white from yr line? Cos a fren mention it look like a thai fish.... just wondering.

anyway my experience with white was much better cos they gave me 100% white with no wash at all from i started whites, but as white finnage doesnt hold that well and i dun cull, so its discouraging to keep maintaining the line.....

[Foo Hong]

Kelvin, the white line is from my existing line #1....yes #1 cos I e just started #2....kekeke

I had several males during the show period which have been earmarked as entries. As I was out of town just before the competition for 2 weeks, I had to enlist the help of our club secretary Roy Cheok to enter my fishes. He was given the liberty to handpick teh ones he feels are nicest on benching day from my dad's place, which is where they were housed. Fortunately n unfortunately, Roy picked some 'correct' fishes, but also didnt pick some others which were 'more correct'..hahha...I was surprised when I went to my dad's home for dinner shortly coming back to Singapore and saw 2 white males which did not went to the show....ekekeke...anyway still got to thank Roy for taking the trouble. Kam Sia!

Some Thais actually enquired on the line after the competition but we didnt trade. I did however sold some of the then F3 to 2 Thai breeders some time back. They were more small-timers than those with large farms. They wanted it bcos at that time Thailand's white lack intense colour. Not sure what they did with the fishes after that. If they had passed on to others then it is not surprising that some fishes can look similar.

The ability to hold the tail up from my observation has to do with various factors, one of which is too much finnage in teh caudal relative to the body size. The 'width' or thickness of the body is also important, those with pencil-like bodies with a fully developed tail[esp if over 180] can hardly hold itself at 4 months. I do not use these fishes for breeding.

I will bring line #2 to Derrick s place on saturday, as #1 line is only 3 weeks old...nothing to see.

[Foo Hong]

Kelvin, the white line is from my existing line #1....yes #1 cos I e just started #2....kekeke

I had several males during the show period which have been earmarked as entries. As I was out of town just before the competition for 2 weeks, I had to enlist the help of our club secretary Roy Cheok to enter my fishes. He was given the liberty to handpick teh ones he feels are nicest on benching day from my dad's place, which is where they were housed. Fortunately n unfortunately, Roy picked some 'correct' fishes, but also didnt pick some others which were 'more correct'..hahha...I was surprised when I went to my dad's home for dinner shortly coming back to Singapore and saw 2 white males which did not went to the show....ekekeke...anyway still got to thank Roy for taking the trouble. Kam Sia!

Some Thais actually enquired on the line after the competition but we didnt trade. I did however sold some of the then F3 to 2 Thai breeders some time back. They were more small-timers than those with large farms. They wanted it bcos at that time Thailand's white lack intense colour. Not sure what they did with the fishes after that. If they had passed on to others then it is not surprising that some fishes can look similar.

The ability to hold the tail up from my observation has to do with various factors, one of which is too much finnage in teh caudal relative to the body size. The 'width' or thickness of the body is also important, those with pencil-like bodies with a fully developed tail[esp if over 180] can hardly hold itself at 4 months. I do not use these fishes for breeding.

I will bring line #2 to Derrick s place on saturday, as #1 line is only 3 weeks old...nothing to see.

[Kelvin Tan]

my line i thought everyone should know by now....hahah

pengyeong PG x (PGxHG) but that was in the past lo......

so f hong you have been working on only your line and never cross to thai's white?

[Kelvin Tan]

my line i thought everyone should know by now....hahah

pengyeong PG x (PGxHG) but that was in the past lo......

so f hong you have been working on only your line and never cross to thai's white?

[Foo Hong]

I have 2 lines only altho I intend to work 3.
Line #1 is what I have
Line #2 is Line #1 x a fish I got from henry Yin[male]. Colour is not so clean but has the elements of a good line. It is not thai blood.
Line #3 was suppose to be Line #1 x 1/2 totoro white.

As line #2 is turning out well and showing what I am seeking, I ve decided to drop the idea of Line #3. No point having too many lines if you ve got what u want, otherwise the line will never be 'pure'.

[Foo Hong]

I have 2 lines only altho I intend to work 3.
Line #1 is what I have
Line #2 is Line #1 x a fish I got from henry Yin[male]. Colour is not so clean but has the elements of a good line. It is not thai blood.
Line #3 was suppose to be Line #1 x 1/2 totoro white.

As line #2 is turning out well and showing what I am seeking, I ve decided to drop the idea of Line #3. No point having too many lines if you ve got what u want, otherwise the line will never be 'pure'.

[Foo Hong]

so f hong you have been working on only your line and never cross to thai's white?

<< never. In my last trip to Thailand, I was browsing their whites, in particular was looking for DTFs. Got one, brought it back but never use her n dont intend to as after several weeks, she showed signs of possible CT and the dorsal/anal fins wasnt very good.

[Foo Hong]

so f hong you have been working on only your line and never cross to thai's white?

<< never. In my last trip to Thailand, I was browsing their whites, in particular was looking for DTFs. Got one, brought it back but never use her n dont intend to as after several weeks, she showed signs of possible CT and the dorsal/anal fins wasnt very good.

[Kelvin Tan]

personally i think thai dun have whites of clean line yet

anyway i just manage to spawn my trademark snowwhite again...yeah yeah...he's more that a year old.

[Ong Ginyew]

any pictures of it?

[Myron Tay]

Should be able to see it here: http://arofanatics.com/members/zhiz22/newbetta/

[Kelvin Tan]

F hong
any advice for my White line? havent been getting good fries. but havent been really doing line crossing or inbreeding either. new spawn is definate father-daughter cross.

[Foo Hong]

Yeah Daughter/Father is fine. I had a month old spawn which was a mother/son spawn.

I am not too high on advices for white breeding. All I can say is breed the ones with the best white colours, ie. cleanest as well as thick white tone.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

F hong
any advice for my White line? havent been getting good fries. but havent been really doing line crossing or inbreeding either. new spawn is definate father-daughter cross.

[Kelvin Tan]

f hong thought you did cross steel to your white to strengthen yr white line?

a fren of mine did it but the spawn turn out to be steel/ royal.....funny le...

[Kelvin Tan]

anyone did anything from straits white? i looking for it.

[Foo Hong]

Yeap a year ago. Think female wasnt a sibling. Only some poor deltas and a few plakats! Gave them away.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

anyone did anything from straits white? i looking for it.

[Foo Hong]

I only once did an experimental spawn with royal x white but was intended to get butterflies, which didnt. Had never bred the opaque line to irids with intention to get better opaques. WHy would I have to reperform this when people have already done it for me > Mr. Peter Goettner and such. Breeding to steels would give F1 steels mostly and F2 F3 wont be very clean either....I reckon. Its already a headache trying to clean up the colour so I would think twice about using steel.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

f hong thought you did cross steel to your white to strengthen yr white line?

a fren of mine did it but the spawn turn out to be steel/ royal.....funny le...

[Kelvin Tan]

i cross straits male with my white, pretty good result, all no wash at all.

as for now i think i kena twice, two breeder sold me female not from same line too....sian... but they are of diff color spawn.

my white kinda messed up cos i had two line and mixed up, but at least now i know the exact parentage of fries i have now. but i can imagine, if only i can cross mine to yours!

[Dr Hsu]

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

f hong thought you did cross steel to your white to strengthen yr white line?

a fren of mine did it but the spawn turn out to be steel/ royal.....funny le...

Quite expected as the steel's dark body, being dominant, will give you all dark bodied fish. White is theoretically a light bodied steel. Why he got royal......that I can't figure out unless he used royal, not steel.

[Kelvin Tan]

exactly......i puzzled but its true. some of the steel seems lighter in color also, maybe try spawn see how

[Foo Hong]

Steels that carry opaque will look powdery in colour!

[Kelvin Tan]

just wondering f hong, how much for your white female?

i think we are the only 2 person left in singapore doing whites haha

[Foo Hong]

haha derrick also doing whites. his totoro that cost him $$$$.

someone also also has the totoro fish...is it sebas or ben fox?

if its a 'cull' that I dont think will give you HMs immediately, I can sell it for $50 or so, if I choose to sell it. When I say 'cull', I mean I would not breed it, but that doesnt mean it has crap finnage. But if its like the one I brought to Derrick's house or the one I entered at the NBC, I wont even think about it for anything less than $200.

[Sebas]

not me, think its benjamin. Dont worry, theres quite a number of people i know who are doing whites.

[ben fox wong]

not me either. i have Edwin's MG & Simon's red plakats. next will try MG (blue or purple) plakat or blue imbellis (with shiny scales).[33]

[Kelvin Tan]

just wondering who are doing white? i know ben isnt...

[kennho]

Too bad, my nice white died, female return to owner, the fries all mishandled and gone. Left with one of your very very early edition of white male and old fish liao. lots of red flashes all over the fins.

even cross your white with a steel but result was bad. Mainly dark body fish and only 2 white body with blue/steel fins.

[jonpoh]

That's good man.. Foo Hong... ! [ber]

At least it keeps the price up... and those whites at Derrick's place does have very good finnage.. Of course... it got to do with the condition you provide for them..

Anyway... Are your whites placed in NBC?

regards

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

haha derrick also doing whites. his totoro that cost him $$$$.

someone also also has the totoro fish...is it sebas or ben fox?

if its a 'cull' that I dont think will give you HMs immediately, I can sell it for $50 or so, if I choose to sell it. When I say 'cull', I mean I would not breed it, but that doesnt mean it has crap finnage. But if its like the one I brought to Derrick's house or the one I entered at the NBC, I wont even think about it for anything less than $200.

[Chris Yew]

The NBC and ABC results are still here;
http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/events_10R1NBC.htm
[bt]

quote:Originally posted by jonpoh


That's good man.. Foo Hong... ! [ber]

At least it keeps the price up... and those whites at Derrick's place does have very good finnage.. Of course... it got to do with the condition you provide for them..

Anyway... Are your whites placed in NBC?

regards

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

haha derrick also doing whites. his totoro that cost him $$$$.

someone also also has the totoro fish...is it sebas or ben fox?

if its a 'cull' that I dont think will give you HMs immediately, I can sell it for $50 or so, if I choose to sell it. When I say 'cull', I mean I would not breed it, but that doesnt mean it has crap finnage. But if its like the one I brought to Derrick's house or the one I entered at the NBC, I wont even think about it for anything less than $200.

[Kelvin Tan]

wa so ex,never mind, i low budget see how well i can perform with cheap fishes.
my policy, never spend more than $30 for a fish and if i can recalled i think i paid at most $22 for a irid HM. well have been doing well so far, doesnt need to spend a lot to get good lines if you look hard enough.

[Foo Hong]

Placed 1st [eb]

Actually I started a 2nd line, outcrossed of winning line, to improve the dorsal form. I think I have succeeded.

But the original line has a stronger colour. So line #2 will be back crossed to line #1 to create Line #3 [ confusing? [cnf]]

Hopefully Line #3 will have the best of both worlds, and I will drop the other 2 lines then.

Too busy at mom hasnt started on line # 3 yet :D

quote:Originally posted by jonpoh


That's good man.. Foo Hong... ! [ber]

At least it keeps the price up... and those whites at Derrick's place does have very good finnage.. Of course... it got to do with the condition you provide for them..

Anyway... Are your whites placed in NBC?

regards

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

haha derrick also doing whites. his totoro that cost him $$$$.

someone also also has the totoro fish...is it sebas or ben fox?

if its a 'cull' that I dont think will give you HMs immediately, I can sell it for $50 or so, if I choose to sell it. When I say 'cull', I mean I would not breed it, but that doesnt mean it has crap finnage. But if its like the one I brought to Derrick's house or the one I entered at the NBC, I wont even think about it for anything less than $200.

[Kelvin Tan]

btw just wondering if anyone bought yr $200/ $150 per pair of white hm the other time, just interested to know who is so hot about whites too. cos now betta market is totally different from what it was like 1-2 years ago.

[Foo Hong]

I sold one pair locally, cant remember how much $$ but guess just nice to cover some of my competition expenses. I still owe a malaysian some fishes.

I am not concerned abt prices in the market, as I am not a commercial guy. If I like someone's fish I will still pay silly prizes.

I didnt know you are 'tracking' my post so closely. When I have some whites which I feel I would want to part away, I will make know. Anyway, I believe some breeders also have good whites, just that they didnt peak during the competition or have any spawns going.

[derrick kuah]

hey , foohong , can you confirm , is white(opaque) blind to others colour: i put my young male in large tank for conditioning, usually, i put a female(tauyhuay con) into the tank,when i put other colour female , no reaction from all male white but with white female , theuy started to flare like crazy.if i put in red, find them hiding at the corner, aree they afraid of red .what about your ..? thanks ..

[Foo Hong]

Ang Moh usually like Ang moh...dont u notice?

Wah lao.....white bettas where got colour blind one? :D

Its just natural that they prefer their own colours.

[Kelvin Tan]

not exactly tracking yr post clearly but i do take a point to note and track who has whites in singapore.

[Mark Choon]

kelvin
i still have a pair of opaques from your line...
tried to spawn them
twice failed
eggs kena makan by the male!!!
that's what prompted me to do turq x opaque

[Foo Hong]

Oppps ....spawn #1 is now 3cm. Can see any female in the spawn so far:(...jia lat liao [bh]

[Foo Hong]

Oppps ....spawn #1 is now 3cm. Can see any female in the spawn so far:(...jia lat liao [bh]

[Foo Hong]

Woow...couple of white HM pairs bidded like crazy on aquabid. hehehe
Seems like singapore buyers are hot in persuit! But honestly these are nice whites that have not been seen for some time on auctions.

Jack Lewin's lines BTW. Tail kinda short for a few of the males at 4 months age. The colour also doesnt seem to have intensified fully

Anyway, I would luv to have a peek at the fish themselves. ....happy bidding for those on it!

[derrick kuah]

hey ,fh ,your better. i m.... still waiting....g. Cross your female to my saichon(conditioning), will let them go in 1-2 days time.

[Foo Hong]

haha ok good good, more white lines emerging locally.

[mohammad asyraf]

myron r ur saraut lines 4 sale

[Myron Tay]

Yes I do, but they are extended red bettas not white one. Will PM you the details.

[Jonathan_Tan]

dun mind pm me the details for yur reds too?
thanks

[Myron Tay]

Can I invite the prize-winning efforts from Kelvin Tan and Morris Gabriel to be shared with all of us here? Kelvin and Morris, do share with us your experience and what all those interested in breeding prize-winning white halfmoons should look out for? Thanks.