The perfect Halfmoon finnage - Full Moon

[Foo Hong]

Peter Goettner kicked off this discussion on his forum and got quite a few big-guns saying their pieces. Lets have our own and see how it may differ.

Maybe someone IT savy can copy and paste the pics of teh blue HM here.

[Sebas]

whats the address of his forum

[Samuel Phan]

The file have been attached ...

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/samuel phan/200325145350_Blue HM.jpg

[Chris Yew]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/halfmoonbetta/?yguid=86367131

[Samuel Phan]

TKLee's definition of a good HM:
(Extracted from GobalHM Yahoo Forum)

>>Good HMs are those that satisfy the following criteria;
>>
>>1. Symmetry - the body line that cuts and seperates the caudal into
>>half.
>>2. Balance - the ability to draw an arc that begins from the caudal
>>and encompasses the dorsal and anal without hitting a snag.
>>3. 180 degree caudal with straight and crisp edges.
>>
>>Few people disagree with the above statements. The only area of
>>disagreement, or rather a difference in opinion exists in
>>the 'proportion',i.e. the caudal/body ratio.
>>
>>When caudal/body is less than 1, you get an 'oval shape'(OS). But
>>when caudal=body or caudal/body is 1, you have a 'circle'(CS).
>>
>>I have bred numerous (OS) HMs as compared to few (CS) HMs. Between
>>them, I consider (CS) HMs as having more aesthetic appeal. They are
>>also more difficult to attain. For me, 'oval shape' HMs are good, but
>>the 'circular shape' HMs are the exceptional ones.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>tklee.

[Myron Tay]

I am more inclined to agree with Dan Young's version. This means that there is some way to go in terms of dorsal fin form. As stated in the IBC standards, the dorsal and anal fins should ideally be mirror images.

[Foo Hong]

Ideally mirror images but really quite never 100% possible, even if DT geno.

[Myron Tay]

Problem is the dorsal fins. Understand that Foo Hong was previously working on this. Anyone else, especially on reds? :D

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Ideally mirroe images but really quite never 100% possible, even if DT geno.

[Myron Tay]

Other than dorsal fins, another aspect of the halfmoon finnage that is often neglected is the ventral fins. These should ideally be broad. Anyone working on this, especially on reds? :D

[jonpoh]

I used to have a red line that started throwing DT dorsals on ST fish.... After a few selection, it became pretty dominant that a large percentage of the spawn started throwing good DT dorsal on STs. However most of them were females. ....
The line have since ended.... as I was unable breed the last male ( Died after one try )
However.. I still possess a healthy female with the above mentioned characteristics.... Her caudal edge is rather straight and she is sister of the superdelta male I post on the net a few months ago..
Any one who will like to achieve a similar looking line.. may approach me to give it a go..

regards
Jonathan Poh

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Other than dorsal fins, another aspect of the halfmoon finnage that is often neglected is the ventral fins. These should ideally be broad. Anyone working on this, especially on reds? :D

[Myron Tay]

Good articles by T K Lee on this subject:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malaysianbettaclub/files/Articles%20About%20HM/Articles%20written%20by%20TK%20Lee/

[jonpoh]

Talking abt this article. I remembered that was published in our last newsletter and have not recieved any ever since..

regards
Jonathan

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Good articles by T K Lee on this subject:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malaysianbettaclub/files/Articles%20About%20HM/Articles%20written%20by%20TK%20Lee/

[Myron Tay]

Have seen many HMs lately, but I must say that not many are of championship winning form in Singapore, even in Aquarama. These can not be bought, they can only be derived from breeding efforts of very good lines. I sure miss Foo Hong's fishes...

Can someone please help to post some truly champion HMs in this thread?

[Myron Tay]

I think this is a good place to put this. As defined by Alvin in the FAQ, the halfmoon is defined as:

Halfmoon (HM) is the term given to bettas that have a perfect semi-circle caudal (i.e. tail)when flaring. Specifically, a halfmoon betta must have a caudal where both ends are exactly 180 degrees apart or more, spreading towards the front. Caudal edges have to be straight or curving outwards, and not bending inwards.

Hence, an Over Halfmoon is a betta that has a caudal spread of more than 180 degrees.

A Super Delta (SD) is a term that is given to the betta which has slightly less than perfect 180 degrees tail spread but greater than or equal to 170 degrees tail spread. Anything less than a 170 degrees tail spread would be term a Delta betta.

[Myron Tay]

I think this is a good place to put this. As defined by Alvin in the FAQ, the halfmoon is defined as:

Halfmoon (HM) is the term given to bettas that have a perfect semi-circle caudal (i.e. tail)when flaring. Specifically, a halfmoon betta must have a caudal where both ends are exactly 180 degrees apart or more, spreading towards the front. Caudal edges have to be straight or curving outwards, and not bending inwards.

Hence, an Over Halfmoon is a betta that has a caudal spread of more than 180 degrees.

A Super Delta (SD) is a term that is given to the betta which has slightly less than perfect 180 degrees tail spread but greater than or equal to 170 degrees tail spread. Anything less than a 170 degrees tail spread would be term a Delta betta.

[Alex Lim]

Hi all,

found a very good appraisal of HMs in this website, complete with pictures and careful explanation. do take a look~

http://groups.msn.com/AdvancedBettas/understandinghalfmoonfinnage.msnw

[Alex Lim]

Hi all,

found a very good appraisal of HMs in this website, complete with pictures and careful explanation. do take a look~

http://groups.msn.com/AdvancedBettas/understandinghalfmoonfinnage.msnw

[Myron Tay]

My ideal betta should fit into a perfect circle and includes a halfmoon dorsal and halfmoon anal. The shape of the dorsal and anal should be somewhat like this (though they should full semi-circles):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453161442_Sarawut Blue.gif

[Myron Tay]

My ideal betta should fit into a perfect circle and includes a halfmoon dorsal and halfmoon anal. The shape of the dorsal and anal should be somewhat like this (though they should full semi-circles):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453161442_Sarawut Blue.gif

[Markus Gutzeit]

Hello,

I will show 2 pics of a fish I breed in the year 2000 and which is for me the ideal typ. Since 1999 I work with Rajiv Masillamoni together and without him I would never had the eye for the perfect halfmoon betta. This fish goes back to a great-grandfather from Rajiv's muticolor line and a female from Leo Bus. This line changed alot lines in 2001 where the genes from it goes to USA and Asia, to a time where this Quality of betta was very rare.
Every breeder has his on typ what he like to breed for, but for me the perfect typ is bred after the plan from the Chenmaswil team Laurent Chenot, Rajiv Masillamoni and Jeff Wilson. They done the ahard work with the development and the Internet made the Halfmoon betta to one of the most in demand fishes.
When I now look in the Internet, I see alot fishes from diffrent breeders who comes to the old genes.

Greetings,
Markus


http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-4-1075712323?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=3&pw=*181B3FEFDDC0

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=2&pw=*6963FEFDC3D

[Markus Gutzeit]

Hello,

I will show 2 pics of a fish I breed in the year 2000 and which is for me the ideal typ. Since 1999 I work with Rajiv Masillamoni together and without him I would never had the eye for the perfect halfmoon betta. This fish goes back to a great-grandfather from Rajiv's muticolor line and a female from Leo Bus. This line changed alot lines in 2001 where the genes from it goes to USA and Asia, to a time where this Quality of betta was very rare.
Every breeder has his on typ what he like to breed for, but for me the perfect typ is bred after the plan from the Chenmaswil team Laurent Chenot, Rajiv Masillamoni and Jeff Wilson. They done the ahard work with the development and the Internet made the Halfmoon betta to one of the most in demand fishes.
When I now look in the Internet, I see alot fishes from diffrent breeders who comes to the old genes.

Greetings,
Markus


http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-4-1075712323?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=3&pw=*181B3FEFDDC0

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=2&pw=*6963FEFDC3D

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Markus Gutzeit

Hello,

I will show 2 pics of a fish I breed in the year 2000 and which is for me the ideal typ. Since 1999 I work with Raji Masillamoni together and without him I would never had the eye for the perfect halfmoon betta. This fish goes back to a great-grandfather from Rajiv's muticolor line and a female from Leo Bus. This line changed alot lines in 2001 where the genes from it goes to USA and Asia, to a time where this Quality of betta was very rare.
Every breeder has his on typ what he like to breed for, but for me the perfect typ is bred after the plan from the Chenmaswil team Laurent Chenot, Rajiv Masillamoni and Jeff Wilson. They done the ahard work with the development and the Internet made the Halfmoon betta to one of the most in demand fishes.
When I now look in the Internet, I see alot fishes from diffrent breeders who comes to the old genes.

Greetings,
Markus


http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-4-1075712323?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=3&pw=*181B3FEFDDC0

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=2&pw=*6963FEFDC3D

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705
Markus

With all due respect, I think that the halfmoon form in the caudal is passe since this has been replicated in several lines. I think we should start thinking about halfmoon forms in the dorsal (as suggested by Dr Leo Buss:http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1914) and anal fins. I think the fish pictured is very nice, except that the anal is disproportionate with the rest of the fish in my opinion.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Markus Gutzeit

Hello,

I will show 2 pics of a fish I breed in the year 2000 and which is for me the ideal typ. Since 1999 I work with Raji Masillamoni together and without him I would never had the eye for the perfect halfmoon betta. This fish goes back to a great-grandfather from Rajiv's muticolor line and a female from Leo Bus. This line changed alot lines in 2001 where the genes from it goes to USA and Asia, to a time where this Quality of betta was very rare.
Every breeder has his on typ what he like to breed for, but for me the perfect typ is bred after the plan from the Chenmaswil team Laurent Chenot, Rajiv Masillamoni and Jeff Wilson. They done the ahard work with the development and the Internet made the Halfmoon betta to one of the most in demand fishes.
When I now look in the Internet, I see alot fishes from diffrent breeders who comes to the old genes.

Greetings,
Markus


http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-4-1075712323?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=3&pw=*181B3FEFDDC0

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=2&pw=*6963FEFDC3D

http://photo.starblvd.net/halfmoonbetta/4-1-3-1075711705
Markus

With all due respect, I think that the halfmoon form in the caudal is passe since this has been replicated in several lines. I think we should start thinking about halfmoon forms in the dorsal (as suggested by Dr Leo Buss:http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1914) and anal fins. I think the fish pictured is very nice, except that the anal is disproportionate with the rest of the fish in my opinion.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by terrance liow

Hai,

Asking for an irrelevant question.

I wish to know that this betta belongs to which class?
I am learning how to differentiate a perfect hm..
Pls log in the following link:
http://www.babb.info/articles/underhm/index.htm

'understanding of hm caudal 3'
..
This fish caudal fin looks like the third pic one..
Staggered edge...

so, it is not a hm lor???

Pls consult me,thanks!!!

Terence

Good thread to read through. As the fish is not flaring, it is difficult to answer the question of whether it is a halfmoon or not. If you are asking whether some fringed-fins is desirable in the halfmoon form, my view is that the fins should ideally be non fringed at all i.e. ideally the rays should be fully webbed.

[Myron Tay]

Can we coin the type of betta envisaged (with halfmoon anal, dorsal and caudal fins) as the true "Full Moon"?

[Markus Gutzeit]

Hi,

you can call this fish Chenmaswil typed.

some points to which the Chenmawil team paid attention for selection their breeders and for the development of the halfmoon traits.

- Midpointsymmetry
- analfin should move forward and backwards
- dorsalfin must be broad
- caudalfin must have straight edges
- good raybranching and splitting
- pelvicfins should be broad
- the fish must be halfmoon until he dies

Greetings,
Markus

PS Congartulation to such an great fish.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Kae

As a complete novice, I may be wrong in my observation, but it seems to me that many betta have anal fins that are too long, compared to the cadual and dorsal...
And if you are breeding halfmoons, you can't have the cadual too large (to fit the anal), because your betta will loose the half moon that much sooner.
Am I processing this correctly?

Kae,

What you have observed is a dilemma that can be resolved in a selected few individual champion bettas.

Case in point:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/2004121791718_Blue Halfmoon.JPG

However, I have observed beautiful balance / form only in young blue halfmoons. Wonder what happens when they grow older? Do they lose their form? Do the anals grow longer and caudals droop?

[sylwester]

Late bloomers and fish with less lenght fins than the ideal IBC 50% preserve their shape until they die, but they are not halfmoon nearly as early as one would want.

[Kae]

Do you think that jarring as late was possible, ie giving the body more time to grow would help perserve the half moon form longer in the older betta?
Also, Myron, I have seen pics like that of the blue beauty you posted, but mostly I see too long anal fins. Do you think that may be a failing in the American breeder?
What lines are known for correct fins? Esp. short or correct anals?
And in which does it matter the most sire or dam or do you think both contribute equaly? I have seen females who's anal fins are very long toward the cadaul fin. They come almost to point. And I am thinking that this contributes towards the over large anals I see everywhere.

[Myron Tay]

Kae

I already jar as late as possible in a sense - as late as I would dare to go for each individual before the risk of it ripping into the fins of its siblings!
As for the long anal fins, many breeders are guilty of not breeding for this trait, in the pursuit of advances in more important aspects such as the caudal / volume / colour. It does not help that the natural form of anals is that it tends to reach further down than the caudals.
I do not know of any specific line that consistently produces perfect anal fins, not even in the irridescent lines I have observed. I suspect that it is something that varies quite a bit even amongst each spawn. Certainly true in the red lines.
I believe that to ensure better proportion in the anals, we should select our breeders (both male and females) with better anal fins. However, in practice, this might be quite a tall order, given that there are in reality other more important factors as I have mentioned earlier.