Double Tail

[Chris Yew]

This DT seems to be loosing interests as we have not seen much entries during the last competition. There also isn't much discussion on it. Probably it's time to create some awareness, interest and understand how this DT comes about.

Anyone knows how the DT comes about. I'm sure I'm not referring to those that you use your scissor and slit the tail into 2 types, lol!:D

[Foo Hong]

Yah lor dont know how it came abt.....some say inbreed then one day the DT come out..... but how come got no DT LH, DT discus leh?

[Chris Yew]

You mean inbreed the ST mannymanny times?[cnf]

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Yah lor dont know how it came abt.....some say inbreed then one day the DT come out..... but how come got no DT LH, DT discus leh?

[kennho]

I remembered seeing double tail since my young age. But during then, no so nice but very expensive. Who started it ... erh ... according to a website, it's a mutation from a spawn by Libby Young, USA in the year 1920.

[Myron Tay]

It is caused by a simple doubletail (DT) gene that is recessive to the normal singletail (ST)gene. That is to say that if you cross a DT to a ST, you would not get any DTs in the resulting spawn. But you show expect 25% DTs if you cross the siblings of the F1 generation(from the DT, ST crossing).
A DT X DT pairing should give you 100% DTs.

[Choy_jinhui]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

It is caused by a simple doubletail (DT) gene that is recessive to the normal singletail (ST)gene. That is to say that if you cross a DT to a ST, you would not get any DTs in the resulting spawn. But you show expect 25% DTs if you cross the siblings of the F1 generation(from the DT, ST crossing).
A DT X DT pairing should give you 100% DTs.



then if i breed DT X DT whose both their grandparent have both DT and ST genes will i atill get 100% DTs???

[Choy_jinhui]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

It is caused by a simple doubletail (DT) gene that is recessive to the normal singletail (ST)gene. That is to say that if you cross a DT to a ST, you would not get any DTs in the resulting spawn. But you show expect 25% DTs if you cross the siblings of the F1 generation(from the DT, ST crossing).
A DT X DT pairing should give you 100% DTs.



then if i breed DT X DT whose both their grandparent have both DT and ST genes will i atill get 100% DTs???

[Charles Lim]

When others mention DT x DT, they mean DT phenotypes. Therefore, DT x DT (both phenotypes) will result in 100% DTs (in theory). If there is an ST gene present, then the phenotype would not look like a DT because the DT gene is recessive to the ST gene. It doesn't really matter what tail genes the grandparent has. Hope this helps.

[Charles Lim]

When others mention DT x DT, they mean DT phenotypes. Therefore, DT x DT (both phenotypes) will result in 100% DTs (in theory). If there is an ST gene present, then the phenotype would not look like a DT because the DT gene is recessive to the ST gene. It doesn't really matter what tail genes the grandparent has. Hope this helps.

[Myron Tay]

Yes. As Charles has mentioned, you should get 100% DTs with a DT and DT crossing.

quote:Originally posted by Choy_jinhui

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

It is caused by a simple doubletail (DT) gene that is recessive to the normal singletail (ST)gene. That is to say that if you cross a DT to a ST, you would not get any DTs in the resulting spawn. But you show expect 25% DTs if you cross the siblings of the F1 generation(from the DT, ST crossing).
A DT X DT pairing should give you 100% DTs.



then if i breed DT X DT whose both their grandparent have both DT and ST genes will i atill get 100% DTs???

[Myron Tay]

Yes. As Charles has mentioned, you should get 100% DTs with a DT and DT crossing.

quote:Originally posted by Choy_jinhui

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

It is caused by a simple doubletail (DT) gene that is recessive to the normal singletail (ST)gene. That is to say that if you cross a DT to a ST, you would not get any DTs in the resulting spawn. But you show expect 25% DTs if you cross the siblings of the F1 generation(from the DT, ST crossing).
A DT X DT pairing should give you 100% DTs.



then if i breed DT X DT whose both their grandparent have both DT and ST genes will i atill get 100% DTs???

[Myron Tay]

Next part of the discussion: what constitutes the ideal doubletail?

[Kelvin Tan]

straight top edges overlapping perfect symmetrical loops, normal length body, broad dorsal to overlap caudal

[Chris Yew]

Here is how you remove the undesirable traits of DT;
http://www.guppiesonli.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=12&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

and here is how you remove the undesirable traits of DT;
http://www.bettasonli.com/article9.html


One more undesirable trait in DT: there tends to be a kink at the caudal peduncle.

The problems list in your article and the one I have mentioned seem to be almost inherent in the DT form. If so, the DT form is inherently flawed. Comments?

[Jonathan_Tan]

Plakat DTs.
how do i breed them?
where do they originate from?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Jonathan_Tan

Plakat DTs.
how do i breed them?
where do they originate from?


Easiest route: breed a DT plakat to a DT plakat = 100% DT plakat

Round about route:
P1 - DT long-finned X Plakat
F1 - Cross offsprings of P1 pairing

Your F1 should obtain approximately 6.25% DT plakats - this is based on probabilities but actual spawns may vary. If you do this over many spawns, you should get 6.25% on average.

[VictoriaParnell]

Actually, there have been some reports of getting a very small percentage (I think 5 or 10%) ST from a DT x DT spawn. I've never had that happen, though. Also please consider the higher incidences of spinal deformities when crossing DT x DT. I have had to cull up to 80% of a spawn because of deformities.

Plakat DT, when done right, can be magnificent, but when using inferior stock they can look very, very bad. Here is one of our shortfin DT:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/VictoriaParnell/2003121922433_plakat1e.jpg

As for what to look for in a DT, I think straight spine, good lobe split, even lobes, and "fullness". Here is a photo of a red variegated DTM. This piece is NOT one of mine, and I can't remember who it belongs to, but I saved it on my pc because it represents the "ideal":

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/VictoriaParnell/2003121922822_coolredbfdt.jpg
As to why it is losing popularity, I think the market is just flooded. I don't know about Singapore, but I'm from the US and DT is so common here that I tend to give most of mine away as extras. I often have them pop up in my HM spawns because I use the DT geno to extend the dorsal.

[Myron Tay]

KY Foong's experience: The line I kept are 100%DT. The spine problem is about 3%-5% only, short bodies about 3-5% also. Rest all normal. I select those with long bodies as breeders. You need at least F3 to see the real results.

[Myron Tay]

KY Foong's experience: The line I kept are 100%DT. The spine problem is about 3%-5% only, short bodies about 3-5% also. Rest all normal. I select those with long bodies as breeders. You need at least F3 to see the real results.

[vincent mah]

quote: I remembered seeing double tail since my young age. But during then, no so nice but very expensive. Who started it ... erh ... according to a website, it's a mutation from a spawn by Libby Young, USA in the year 1920.

I wander where the original double-tails are from ?
In the book by TFH 'all about betta' by Walt Maurus which was publish in 1976 on pg 14 a pic of containers it state that the original
double-tail was develope in singapore.Also on pg 97 it was developed in the far east in the 1960 it was call split-tails rather than double-tails when it was first introduced

quote:KY Foong's experience: The line I kept are 100%DT. The spine problem is about 3%-5% only, short bodies about 3-5% also. Rest all normal. I select those with long bodies as breeders. You need at least F3 to see the real results.


I think he ,if i am not wrong he was talking about his Cambodian double-tail. I had the same breed of double-tail but has since cross it out and no longer has the true breed.Yes you can cross many F of DTxDT (I have done about 3 Fs before i cross out)and still get few % of spine and short body problem (by selection of the normal as breeders and the breeders does not carry the fault).

[vincent mah]

quote: I remembered seeing double tail since my young age. But during then, no so nice but very expensive. Who started it ... erh ... according to a website, it's a mutation from a spawn by Libby Young, USA in the year 1920.

I wander where the original double-tails are from ?
In the book by TFH 'all about betta' by Walt Maurus which was publish in 1976 on pg 14 a pic of containers it state that the original
double-tail was develope in singapore.Also on pg 97 it was developed in the far east in the 1960 it was call split-tails rather than double-tails when it was first introduced

quote:KY Foong's experience: The line I kept are 100%DT. The spine problem is about 3%-5% only, short bodies about 3-5% also. Rest all normal. I select those with long bodies as breeders. You need at least F3 to see the real results.


I think he ,if i am not wrong he was talking about his Cambodian double-tail. I had the same breed of double-tail but has since cross it out and no longer has the true breed.Yes you can cross many F of DTxDT (I have done about 3 Fs before i cross out)and still get few % of spine and short body problem (by selection of the normal as breeders and the breeders does not carry the fault).

[Myron Tay]

Another problem with the doubletails or does this occur in singletails (with no doubletail geno) as well?

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/2004531950_Dorsal Defect.jpg

[Myron Tay]

Another problem with the doubletails or does this occur in singletails (with no doubletail geno) as well?

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/2004531950_Dorsal Defect.jpg

[derrick kuah]

Myron , Think this only happened for st with dt genes . So far , i don,t experiences any from my totoro(pure st genes).But seen lot of them from my others lines(with dt genes).

[derrick kuah]

Myron , Think this only happened for st with dt genes . So far , i don,t experiences any from my totoro(pure st genes).But seen lot of them from my others lines(with dt genes).

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron , Think this only happened for st with dt genes . So far , i don,t experiences any from my totoro(pure st genes).But seen lot of them from my others lines(with dt genes).
Thanks. I also see this trait in STs and DTs from my line which carries the DT gene.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron , Think this only happened for st with dt genes . So far , i don,t experiences any from my totoro(pure st genes).But seen lot of them from my others lines(with dt genes).
Thanks. I also see this trait in STs and DTs from my line which carries the DT gene.

[Myron Tay]

Is there any DT line out there without all or most of the faults discussed above? I am of course not talking about individuals here, as it is the line that is important. I have not experienced one to date, though my experience with DTs is extremely limited.

[Myron Tay]

Is there any DT line out there without all or most of the faults discussed above? I am of course not talking about individuals here, as it is the line that is important. I have not experienced one to date, though my experience with DTs is extremely limited.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron , Think this only happened for st with dt genes . So far , i don,t experiences any from my totoro(pure st genes).But seen lot of them from my others lines(with dt genes).
Derrick

So Totoro had been successful with producing fish with wonderful finnages without the use of DT genes?

[derrick kuah]

Myron,
YEs , "he" does before , don,t know about now since heard he bought lot of thai fishes recently(from sarawut , choek..)Maybe he find its more workable to buy then breeding or demands more then supplies for his case.Korea and taiwaness are big buyers now , very soon , we will find another challenger coming here for comp..

[Alex Lim]

Ok.. a doubt to address.. do fellas with DT genes tend to produce long anal fins? ST geno face the same problem?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron,
YEs , "he" does before , don,t know about now since heard he bought lot of thai fishes recently(from sarawut , choek..)Thanks, Derrick.

Let me ask again: do we need the DT gene to improve our ST lines? Comments from those on this forum?

[Myron Tay]

Originally posted by Siong Yek
Look at this diagram

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/siong yek/200361319736_Diagram3.gif

as u can see in the diagram it seems like the 4th one is bad coz it written down 'bad' even the lobe is even??which one is the best? i got that diagram on net..

thanks

[Kae]

As yuou know I am quite new to this. But I have been picking up a few things. I could be wring, but I think that the last picture was labled poor becvause although the lobes were even, it was an incomplete split, going less than half the length of the caudal.
Does any one else concur?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Kae

As yuou know I am quite new to this. But I have been picking up a few things. I could be wring, but I think that the last picture was labled poor becvause although the lobes were even, it was an incomplete split, going less than half the length of the caudal.
Does any one else concur?
Kae

Welcome to the forum! And yes, you are absolutely right.

[Kae]

That was my first post ever, and this is my second, lol.
I am training my eye. Of course it is MUCH easier to spot faults in a drawing than it is in a picture, which is probably a little easier than an actual living fish.
I find it is easier to crique my poor lil veil tail when glaring at his pitcure, than at him. The pic holds still, lol.
Thanks again, I am learning so much, I don't even know where on the forum I am, I just ended up here following different threads from ofther portions of the forum.
I suspect my brains will explode by the time I catch up on all the threads in the different areas.
BTW, you have beautiful fish.
I don't think DT genes are absolutely necessary, perhaps it can be veiwed as a short cut, with all the inherent risks that a short cut entails.
However selectively breeding for the long dorsal without the DT genes IS possible. I may be new to betts, but I have breed dogs for 15 years, and there are some crazy things found in dog breeds that weren't put there by nature, but by man manipulating the genes.
It may also take a little longer. But for the individual breeder it may be well worth it.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Kae

That was my first post ever, and this is my second, lol.
I am training my eye. Of course it is MUCH easier to spot faults in a drawing than it is in a picture, which is probably a little easier than an actual living fish.
I find it is easier to crique my poor lil veil tail when glaring at his pitcure, than at him. The pic holds still, lol.
Thanks again, I am learning so much, I don't even know where on the forum I am, I just ended up here following different threads from ofther portions of the forum.
I suspect my brains will explode by the time I catch up on all the threads in the different areas.
BTW, you have beautiful fish.
Glad you are enjoying getting lost over here, Kae. :D I envy you. It's like discovering a whole new world, isn't it?

quote:
I don't think DT genes are absolutely necessary, perhaps it can be veiwed as a short cut, with all the inherent risks that a short cut entails.
However selectively breeding for the long dorsal without the DT genes IS possible. I may be new to betts, but I have breed dogs for 15 years, and there are some crazy things found in dog breeds that weren't put there by nature, but by man manipulating the genes.
It may also take a little longer. But for the individual breeder it may be well worth it.
Thank, Kae, for sharing your thoughts (which are the first on this topic by the way) and for sharing your experience with dog breeding. It has been encouraging to me personally.

[Kae]

Thank you. Yes, it is a whole new world, but I am enjoying myself emmensly (sp??).
I have actually thought long and hard as to how I would apply my knowlegde of dog breding to the breeding of bettas, specifiacally in the formation of a strain.
As soon as I figure out where to put it, I will share it, and I would love to hear the opinions of those that have actually carried out their dream as opposed to just dreaming it... like me, lol.

[Alex Lim]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

Ok.. a doubt to address.. do fellas with DT genes tend to produce long anal fins? ST geno face the same problem?


hi all,

this question was posed slightly close to 3 months, anyone able to clarify this? all my lines has DT geno so i'm not able to decipher the mystery. anyone still keep pure ST geno lines?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

Ok.. a doubt to address.. do fellas with DT genes tend to produce long anal fins? ST geno face the same problem?


hi all,

this question was posed slightly close to 3 months, anyone able to clarify this? all my lines has DT geno so i'm not able to decipher the mystery. anyone still keep pure ST geno lines?

Don't think it is an issue with DT genes. My line has DT genes but don't think the anal fins on my lines are necessarily exceptionally long are they?

[Alex Lim]

it is not too fair a comparison if your fishes has DT genes isnt it? [be] anyone else with pure ST lines?

i know this is not representative but U. Vincent mentioned to me at the BW comp that his lines did not have this problem till recently.. so, could it be due to the increasing popularity of infusing DT genes that may be a cause? isolated cases are not good enough because they do not represent the general situation.

anyone care to give a possible explanation base on theory or experience? i'm nutto [bt]

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

quote:Originally posted by vicki Parslow Stafford

About 25% of the fry from a spawn of turquoise SD sibling pair have divided tails. The parent pair were from a platinum HM male and steel ST female.

The tails of these fry are unevenly divided, and the division is only partial (not all the way to the base).

If these fish were bred (assuming they carry the DT gene), would any DT offspring necessarily have unevenly divided tails also, or would you expect variation in how the gene was expressed? In other words, could some be 'normal' double tails? Thank you.

Vicki Parslow Stafford
hi Vicki,


i hope i am able to help.

i'm not sure if the dt geno belongs to the continuous variation category. but if you spawned these "deformed" dts, the chances that you get poor dts are likely. in fact, many claimed dt x dt crossings leads to lots of undesirable traits like fused tails and bent spines.
however, i do not rule out any possibility of normal dts appearing but these are likely to be in low percentages. the dt geno belongs to the simple mendalian mode, if you get what i mean.

in any case, if you want "normal" dts to appear, it's best to use a relatively good dt and cross with a st sibling with the dt geno itself. the problem though is, how do you verify if the st sibling has the geno? it's more a matter of chance and if you want to secure higher chances of success (getting dts), it's advisable to work out several spawns from the same spawn-line.

also note that st(dt geno) x dt does not mean all resulting dt offsprings will be "normal". when using the dt geno, there will almost always be deformed fellas.

hope this helps.

cheerZ,
alex
quote:Originally posted by vicki Parslow Stafford

Thanks Alex, that's very helpful.

Vicki PS

[Eugene]

pure ST or DT lines or DT geno can produce long anals....
Dont think long anals due to DT gene...

[Alex Lim]

hi eugene,

yah, it never was. no corelation between both. it is the enhanced branching on anal fins that contribute to the problem. use such breeders with care. anything beyond secondary branching on anal not recommended.

cheerZ,
alex

p/s: finally someone remembered about my query from a year ago.. lol :D