plants & leaves (other than ketapang)

[ben fox wong]

have anyone tried leaves other than ketapang? i find that some other dried leaves also turn the water brownish, just wondering if they release tanning as well & good for the fish too?[dt]

[kennho]

Dried banana leaves. Slower than ketapang when turning to brown. Once it start to turn, the pH will drop very fast.

Ben, maybe change the title to "plants and leaves for betta" kekekeke ...

[ben fox wong]

as a <sotong> [:o)] i began with the initial veil tails, i just used ordinary leaves picked from around HDB carparks. don't know what they are, frangipani? angsana? it turned the water brown also. the VTs also blew bubble nest underneath. the breeding attempt was aborted after visiting the Aug roadshow & i switched to proper bettas & ketapang leaves, hence i wouldnt know if other dried brown leaves would work.

Dried Banana leaves? ah yes, i can give it a try, i have some bananas now in the kitchen in fact. one can also put banana leaves with the daphnias for them to multiply right? dried banana leaves would be easier to source, as i usually get bitten by mosquitos when i pick ketapang leaves. :(

Title also changed as suggested.

[Myron Tay]

Anyone can tell me exactly what good these leaves do to the water and whether similar leaves are found in the natural habitat?

[Foo Hong]

In Thailand all breeders use this. I have also pondered many times if this is necessary or just a pychological thing. My believe are...ketapang....yes it does have some sort of mild anti bacteriacide effect. have done some experiences to 'convince' myself. Adults dont need very heavy dose so the water remains pretty clear.

Thais also use banana leaves, said to hardnen body of fighting stock. I think it is also bcos of easy availability, so dont gop to market just to buy banana leave s and dry yrself. I think they are similar but find ketapang better. I also throw in money plants cuttings and other similar plants I can find. My fishes blow lots of bubbles...all the time...healthy ! :D

[Myron Tay]

So this mild anti-bacteria effect helps your betta to....?

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

In Thailand all breeders use this. I have also pondered many times if this is necessary or just a pychological thing. My believe are...ketapang....yes it does have some sort of mild anti bacteriacide effect. have done some experiences to 'convince' myself. Adults dont need very heavy dose so the water remains pretty clear.

Thais also use banana leaves, said to hardnen body of fighting stock. I think it is also bcos of easy availability, so dont gop to market just to buy banana leave s and dry yrself. I think they are similar but find ketapang better. I also throw in money plants cuttings and other similar plants I can find. My fishes blow lots of bubbles...all the time...healthy ! :D

[kennho]

Ketapang leaves and fruit (believe it or not), is used in some medication for liver dieases. Extremely rich in tannic acid.

Banana plants and leaves are much used in asia. The saying is that the leaves is used for disinfecting purposes that's why used in nasi lemak. There are a few research based on banana leaves and it's function. Slow in releasing acidic agent and won't cause sudden pH down. Stablised at pH 5.3 during my previous experiment.

Burnt coconut leaves and fibre husk from the juicy cooling fruit very good filtering agent. Saw people using dried coconut leaves as well. Water is very dark.

guan yin bamboo, slow growing plant. In large vol tank, unable to perform task like small betta tank. Average in picking up ammonia. Low maintenance.

Pandan plants, mid growning plant. In large vol tank, extremely good to pick up nutrient and soften water. However, attract mosquitoes. Require light.

Water floating plant. Required strong light, good for those with tub outside the house or near direct sunlight. Do watch the pH of those water as these plants took up much of the nutrients and rot fast. Root system is good for hiding.

Small floating weed, duck weed. Intensively used in pond and sewage system. One of the best but messy when handling. Spread and multiply extremely fast. Got negative impact if used wrongly.

Green Algae. Believe it or not. I consider this the BEST of all. However, need strong light to culture.

Home made pH Down : Red/purple/blue flowers soak in boiling water. Use pH meter to test. You will be surprise to have super pH Down solution. hahahaha

Zeolite : Aluminium Sulphate if I not wrong. Clear up water and has an effect of reacting with ammonia.

Drift wood : Another source for you guys to consider.

Tea leave : Now, that's why they call those brown water tea color mah. Joking, dun use tea leave hor. Not the same type of organic tannic.

No matter what, tannic acid has an antiseptic effect and it occured in all plants leh. So how, To use or not to use.

[Chris Yew]

Wah, Kenneth - your plant theory is more Chim than the Yellow theory man!

Haha, maybe you can set up a 'Plant and Leaves' shop for fishes!

:D

[Myron Tay]

So Kenn, you are saying that the use of ketapang leaves has the same effect as a comparable amount of water plants (e.g. java moss)?

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Kenn,

Could you elaborate on the usage of floating plants? You have mentioned that improper usage will have negative impact.

From my observation ... too much weed will deprive the betta of the oxygen needed. Thus leads to high motality rate.

As for dried coconut leave ... tried that ... water turned very dark and seem sto promote algae growth as well.

Algae best for fishes? To promote the culture ... dun use plants in tank. The water becomes too clean for algae to grow.

[Myron Tay]

My guess is that if you want plants and algae in the tank together at the same time, just blast the tank with lots of light. Best if you could put it out into the open. Guaranteed to get lots of algae. You can't stop them growing if you tried. Believe me, I have tried. :(

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

Hi Kenn,

Algae best for fishes? To promote the culture ... dun use plants in tank. The water becomes too clean for algae to grow.

[Samuel Phan]

I have outdoor tanks that are so sparkling clean that I have problem getting the "Green" water for my daphnia culture. I trace the problem back to the plants I have in the tank ... I have flaoting plants like water hycinth and water lettuce.

[Myron Tay]

Samuel, just to check with you. Does light get through to the water below? If there is no light, agree that algae would not grow since the floating plants would have absorbed all the light. Remove the floating plants and put in plants that do not cover the source of light and note the difference.

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

I have outdoor tanks that are so sparkling clean that I have problem getting the "Green" water for my daphnia culture. I trace the problem back to the plants I have in the tank ... I have flaoting plants like water hycinth and water lettuce.

[Tan Xiao YI]

heard ppl say "bun gar" leaves oso can but nv try b4...

[kennho]

To my understanding, ketapang has been used for many people many years. I think definitely a sure things to use to get not only tannic acid but also other form of minerals and the antiseptic effect. One thing I am not sure is how the real betta environment in the wild. I ever catch betta in mud pool, water is filled with lots of other types of leaves and plants. My aga aga idea is that if we can provide clean, mineral filled and slightly acidic water would be the best. But after so much hybrid-inline breeding, what you guys think ?

Anyway, floating plant provide better solution than underwater plants for the purpose of taking up the nutrients that are toxic to fish. These won't be the same effect as in ketapang leaf. The softening of water only make the Nitrogen concentration less toxic to fish but it don't remove or oxidize these toxic elements.

However, some of these plants took up all the nutrients and left nothing for the fish. So instead of helpping, becoming a bad thing to have. Frequent water change will help. For small betta tank, I don't see problem. But those big blue tubs that some of us have will be something to take note. As for oxygen, underwater plant will be something to be more careful of. Weed block up a big portion of the surface and make it difficult for O2 to dissolve. Java moss are very slow growing plant which required very little nutrient. I still don't find it a good plant to use as compare to the more conventional guanyin bamboo and money plant.

Actually I was comparing the wild caught type, the breeded "wild" and the fanciful type and see a different in body mass. Who don't agree. :) The outdoor seems to be much stronger, larger body mass and even more "fierce". I have yet to proof this point as I just started to dump a few young betta into green water. Maybe you guys with big outdoor tubs can say something. But do note that green culture has high pH of at least 7.6 and above. No way it will drop below 7. So if you want soft water for your fish, green water is not the choice.

If there are floating plants or larger plants in the water, algae will not grow or boom so easily. Algae is a totally different type of plant that required only a few nutrients compare to the rest. A ratio of 10:1 Ammonia:Phosphorous. Once the competition start, algae sure to loss out. But why some planted tanks are having headache over algae is due to excessive nutrients in the water which allow algae to strive.

Why I say algae best ... erh ... that's a secret. :)

Erh .. correct me if I am wrong in any of the points.

[Myron Tay]

So, just to clarify, ketepang leaves are used to soften the water. Hence it is less effective than some water plants, since it does not transform the harmful amononia secreted from decaying matter and wastes from fish like water plants do. It merely mitigates the effects that the wastes and such have on the fish.

I can understand why java moss being a slow growing (though low maintenance) plant would remove less nutrients that a comparable faster growing plant. Could I understand why floating plants is better at the job of removing nutrients than underwater plants?

Also, do fish really need any nutrients from the water? What nutrients do they need from the water?

[Ong Ginyew]

i agree with Kenn tat algae is best,
i did an experiment. i threw 3 short-finned betta (one after another) into a big container infested with algae, i thought they would get killed
or get entangled in it. But they seem alrite...
took em out afew months later, very vibrant colour and super fierce....
nips u when ur hands enter d water and tries jumpin out of water whenever he sees someone. All 3 r d same... dun noe y leh, think kenn should noe y...

[Foo Hong]

We have to think apples and oranges. Ketapang dried leaves have diff purpose vs. live plants. Plants primary remove nutrients as they grow, incl ammonia n phosphate. Ketapang imparts tannins, etc in the water that propably inhibit certain[not all !] bacteria from mutiplying. In my own experience, fries raised in 100% clean tap water are weaker bcos they do not have the 'shield' which ketapang can offer. It does help. I did an experiment where I put fries 2 weeks od, abt 49 fishes in a2 ft tank[10 gallons], and tint with ketapang. water slightly murky as well due to algae. water not changed until 2 months old. all healthy n fat. probably bcos they never fall ill. The leaves has to has some effect. Henry Yin shares same thot but feels fries grow slower due to lack of fresh water changes. He of cos likes quick growth!

[kennho]

Agree ! As I reading some of the comment in Arofanatics, I find a lot of misunderstanding in the use of ketapang. Some saying that softwater kill bacteria *faint siah*. Ketapang solution actually destroy some (not all types) of bacteria. Now here is the next problem : will ketapang solution cause mutation of bacteria and get resistance due to long term exposure. Should we use it on permanent basis ?

Anyway, I do keep fries in tap water and the growth rate is comparable slower as compare to those in ketapang solution. Tap water keeping also prone to diease attack.

Myron, your question required a vet to answer liao. I am also looking into this nutrient topic.

Same as any plant that take in nutrients, or I should say photosynthesis process, CO2, sufficient lights are essential. Underwater plants need to take in all these erh ... under water lor. With a single fish in a container, CO2 is very low. Floating plants don't have this problem.

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Myron,

Just to answer some of the questios raised:

In my opinion, it is not ideal to use aquatic plants in the betta tank, as these require reasonably good lights and CO2 to grow. The amount of nutrient/waste uptake depends is related to the rate of phtotosynthesis of the plants. Even with slow growing and undemanding plants like java moss and ferns, the rate of nutrient uptake would be low as well.

As for terrestrial plants with roots immersed into the water, it is far more effective, as the plants can readily take up CO2 from the atmosphere, which is abt 21% of the air we breathe, and also provided that light is adequate. To achieve a good level of photosynthesis with aquatic plants, the water column would need a good 15-20ppm of CO2, in my opinion. Thus the terrestrial plant would have an aerial advantage over submersed aquatic plants.

About nutrients, the fishes, like us, would require the usual protein, fats and carbihydrates in the food, as building blocks for energy and growth. Besides these, many cellular processes in the body would also require nutrients like trace elements and vitamins. The fish can either take in the trace elements and vitamins through the food they ingest, or they can also take them up from the water column through their gills.

Live food provides trace elements and vitamins best, as these elements are quite unstable and oxidises quickly in water and light. These elements would usually not be very effectively incoporated into prepared food, as they deteriorate quickly and may have reached a very low level when you feed your fish with these food after storing them for a while.

There's also specially prepared trace elements and multivitamins solutions available, that they are chelated and stabilise for dosing into the water, for the fishes to absorb. Currently, I'm using Dennerle S7 (trace elements) and Vmaxx (multivitamins) for my arowana and plants in my main tank. Quite effective, really.

About ketapang leaves being bacteriocidal, I've heard that it does have such effect, but not too sure. With tannin and lignin leaching out from the leaves, it is also bacteriostatic as their acidity oftens discourage the growth of the bacteria colony in the water as well.

Hope I've answered some of your questions.

Cheers,

Kenny

[kennho]

Now that's a professional explaination ! Thank you Doc.

I think that explain the frequent water change to replenish the important trace elements and other dissolved solids for both the plants and fishes.

[Foo Hong]

whats the range of vitamins in Vmaxx. Denerle S7 has what minerals dah?

[Ong Ginyew]

Dennerle is a Germaany brand if im not wrong...
Vmaxx provides fishes with essential amino acids , lecithin and essential fatty acids through the unique A.L.F system.
For S7, it contains plant-enzymes, Enriched with vital chelate-iron, Activates nutrients. Prevents algae too.
Dennerle is a gud brand but quite x pensive...
"yi fen qian yi fen huo" :)

[Foo Hong]

I know Den is a german plant system just like dupla. Hallo doctor poh.....can tell us why u must splurge on them or not. Vmaxx does whatelse? Viagra-ness in bettas?

[kennho]

If you go to those big plant farm/shops, ask for plant use trace element. Should be crystal form light blue in color.
Trace element contain all the essential metal mineral to supplement both plants and fishes. The blue coloring is mainly due to the chelated iron.

To further increase the FE+ contain in water which is found naturally in most muddy water, chelated iron can be used. However, this iron compound not easily found in any store. Usage should be dissolving 1 gram to 1L of distill water to form a iron supplement solution and use only 1mL per 100L of water. Paisey, I can't remember the detail on the calculation of FE+ in water. Got to dig out those books again.

As for vitamins, I still prefer to use varieties of food. Once in a while, just drop a few drops of children types after water change. Most of the time, these vitamins oxidized and become useless.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks Kenny. Clarifies a lot of things for me. It has been most educational.

But I am not so sure that terrestrial plants are generally that much more effective than submerged water plants in terms of transforming ammonia to less harmful substances (for the bettas). I think it is far more effective to ask whether the ammonia in each aquarium is being fully converted to less harmful substances.

It is known that the amount of plant production is limited by the least amount of the required elements (CO2, light, trace metals) present. So for example, if you have lots of light but very little CO2, the rest of the light would go to waste as there is not enough CO2 for more production once the initial CO2 is fully utilised.

So while the arguement is that non-terrestrial plants are limited by the CO2 available in the water (although I must say that I am a little skeptical that this is the limiting factor given the amount of CO2 producing rotting material and fish in our tanks and the fact CO2 is added to the tank through surface water that is in contact with atmosphere air), I would argue that terrestrial plants (assuming the get sufficient light) would be limited by the amount of trace metals in the water.

Since our goal is to reduce the amount of harmful ammonia produced by our bettas, we should monitor the level of ammonia in our aquarium and ensure there are enougn plants (terrestrial or non-terrestrial, floating or non-floating, algae or non-algae) to achieve the desired ammonia levels.

On the issue of fish nutrition, could I ask if all elements and vitamins required by our bettas could be found in the speciality prepared foods (I see a whole long list of vitamins and trace elements in most good dried foods)? Do we still need to add anything that cannot be found in the food we feed to the fish?

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Myron,

Yeah, I anticipate a good discussion on this...:D

Ok, after consulting my plant text books, I need to make a clarification, that is, while atmosphere contains more CO2, the concentration of CO2 in natural water would be 3 times more than that in the air, as CO2 molecules diffuses much more slowly than in air.

It is because of this slow rate of diffusion in the water that CO2 molecules do not contact the plant leave fast enough for effective uptake in the aquatic plants.

Since carbon makes up the greater portion of the biomass of the plants, its presence is essential, as it is the building block for synthesis of food for the plants. Thus, you can see that this will be a major limiting factor in the process of photosynthesis, if there aren't enough of CO2.

In our aquaria, in this case, bettas housed in small tanks, the amt of C is definitely not so adequate, as the organic carbon coming from the waste is limited, and if there's enough carbon coming from decomposition, there'll usually be other more toxic by products like hydrogen sulphide and ammonia.

Trace elements, as the name suggest, is only required in extremely minute amount. And this is usually in adequate supply through fish food, prepared or alive. So, I don't think it will play a large part in our context here, as we're now talking about putting plants in our betta tank, rather than setting up a fully planted tank, etc.

Ammonia is the preferred form for uptake by plants, aquatic or terrestrial. It is also very toxic, and hence the nitrogen cycle is essential in converting it to nitrate. However, in our betta tank where there's inadequate/no filtration system in most, there'll no be enough surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to colonise, and as a result ammonia can accumulate and kill your fishes. That is why we need to change the water of our betta tanks more frequently. Therefore, it'll be good to have some form of plants to absorb the ammonia, assuming other conditions for photosynthesis is right.

Thus, with the above info I can get from my aquatic plant books, I'd think that terrestrial plants like the Guan Yim Teck with its roots in our mini betta aquaria, would work better than having aquatic planrs in there.

Oh yes, I don't think that S7 (boron, moybdenum, maganese, magnesium, copper,etc) is really suitable for use in our betta tank, as it is quite concentrated, which can also prove toxic as an overdose becomes heavy toxic metals and not trace elements. Trace elements found in most fish food is enough.

Most of the prepared fish food would have contained enough trace elements and vitamins, but I'm not sure about their shelf life, as the vitamins coming into contact with air and light can oxidise and get degraded quite easily. Trace elements can be kept longer though.

As for Vmaxx, yes, it is expensive and made for the aquaria with high light, ie. a planted tank. The ALF system stabilises the vitamins in there longer. For our use in the betta tanks, there're other cheaper brands like Vbooster , etc.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Myron Tay]

We all know terrestrial plants take in water and other stuff (not sure what other stuff) through their roots. That is why we place fertiliser. Is there enough of the other stuff in a fish tank to support the level of plant production required by a terrestrial plant?

And do the roots of terrestrial plants perform the same function of transforming ammonia to less harmful substances as performed by non-terrestrial plants?

Would the same context apply to a community (female bettas) tank?

[Myron Tay]

OK, I have looked up "Ecology of a Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad. She states that freshwater aquatic plants face major problems in getting the carbon (both CO2 and bicarbonates) they need for their photosynthesis. However,non-terrestrial plants have devised ingenious strategies to increase its intake of carbon. There are five known strategies (1) storage of CO2 as malate (2) refixation of respired CO2 (3) bicarbonate uptake (4) sediment CO2 update by roots (5) aerial growth. Therefore, I take the point that terrestrial plants would probably have a more ready supply of CO2 than non-terrestrial plants.

I have also discovered that ammonium (NH4), nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3) are probably the best source of nitrogen for non-terrestrial plants. (Ammonium is one of the by-products of mixing ammonia with water). Based on studies, non-terrestrial plants prefer ammounium the most. With the abundance of nitrogen in atmoshpheric air, would terrestrial plants still be interested in absorbing ammonium for their nitrogen needs? If they do not, would they be performing the function that we most need them for in our betta tanks?

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Myron,

Good questions!

Well, I don't think the roots of aquatic plants can convert ammonia into nitrate, they prefer direct uptake of ammonia. Actually, the reason why they don't like to take up nitrate is because it'll take them more energy to convert nitrate to nitrogen.

Well, ammonium NH4 is the result of having an extra hygrogen atom derived from water. So if terrestrial plants prefer ammonium, wouldn't the plants prefer to draw them from the water column?

I think that given the choice, all plants would just want to take in the nitrogen molecules direct, as it saves them energy which would otherwise be expended to convert the nitrogenous compound into nitrogen atoms.

However, my contention is that CO2 is usually a limiting factor in aquaria, and thus if aquatic plants are put into an envt with no extra CO2 injection and low light, that may cause them to die. However, many of the terrestrial plants used by many in their betta tank, can usually survive in low light and have an abundance of CO2 to draw from the air.

Hey, you're a fan of Diana Walstad too? Currenty there's another book by this person Kasselmann, have you read it too? I've yet to lay my hands on it.:D

I'm also learning as we go along, keep the posts coming Myron!
And Happy New Year!

Cheers,

Kenny

[Myron Tay]

But Kenny, if you follow Diana Walstad's book, she advocates that there is enough CO2 in the aquarium from fish food, fish and decaying plant matter. In fact, she feels that there is no need to add additional CO2 in the balanced aquarium!

Sure, terrestrial plants grow faster given that they have readily CO2 and NO2 from the air. But the question remains if they need any ammonium to suppliment their nitrogen needs. If they do not, then they are not taking any of the ammonium out of the betta tank i.e. not fulfilling at all the purpose why we put them there in the first place!

I just have the one book by Diana. Did she write anything else? It is a highly recommended book for those who want to know more about maintaining a planted aquarium. She frowns on the expensive Dupla and Dennerle systems, and advocates a cheap aquarium system using soil! Interesting thesis, though I suspect you would have to very careful concerning your choice of plants and would not be able to sustain some aquatic plants (since there would not be the additional CO2).

No, I have not read "Aquarium Plants" by Christel Kasselmann. Sounds more like a reference book about plants.

Thanks, Kenny. It has been my pleasure and I have learnt much. Have a great New Year too.

[Myron Tay]

For information, Diana believes that "Aquatic plants in nature are often limited by CO2. The difficulties submerged plants have in obtaining enough CO2 are believed to be responsible for their inherently slow growth and low productivity. Air-grown plants (terrestrial annuals, emergents and rain forest plants) are much more productive than freshwater submerged plants."

Also, submerged marine plants are more productive than those in the freshwater environment. This is due to the fact that "marine plants are suured of an ample and constant supply (of carbon) from the bicarbonates in seawater."

[kennho]

Wow Myron reading reference books during holiday !!

I no read books, but here are the experience I got.

All plants need nutrients, K(3%), Mg(0.2%), S(1.2%), C(15%), H, N, O, P, Fe(0.1%) and more(based on local water condition). What the air supplies to the leaves are H, N, C, O. What we have in our betta tanks are not enough. But the terrestial plant we put in are able to extend the root to obtain the limited nutrient and store them up. How fast are these plants growing in our tanks - SLOW ! Those that i trimmed out and pluck into my pot of soil are growing faster and multiplying. In our betta tanks, everything is limited, not just CO2. Plants take up NH3, NH4+ faster than NO2, NO3 as less energy required. In our betta tank, there is limited oxidizing component to convert the NH3/NH4+ to NO2/NO3 ( other than the food we added ). In fact, the water change replenish the nutrients and continue to let the plant growing and removing the increasing N factor.

To me, terrestial plants are adapted to pick up the important nutrients and water from the root systems and the leaves are used for photosynthesis and respiration / exchanging of gas CO2 and O2 ( not too sure about the N2 exchange through leaves cells ). That's why making these plants slightly more favourable than aquatic plants to be use in our case.

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Myron,

I've read somewhere that terrestrial plants have a preferential uptake of nitrogen through the roots, while the aquatic plants would prefer to take them through the leaves and shoots. I think this got to do with the compound in which nitrogen exists, eg. NH3/NH4+, NO2, No3, etc.

Diana's book is good as a reference book, but I think for her system to work, it has a few provisos, which is inapplicable to our betta tank.

For Diana's system to work, you'd need the carbon to build up over time, through fish food and buildup of humus in a matured tank. And you're right that it is not meant for those plants that requires large amount of CO2 from the start, as by the time DOC (dissolved organic carbon) is allowed to build up, these plants would have perished.

In our small betta tank which is typically low lit, the nitrogenous waste product would have buildup much quicker than the plants can absorb. Thus, it is better to rely on efficient biofiltration and frequent water change to make sure that NH3/NH4+/NO2/NO3 do not build up. However, if you were just to compare using terrestrial plants vs aquatic plants, I'd go for the former.

That said, I think plants for betta tanks should be used as a supplement to proper filtration and frequent water change, instead of an absolute solution to waste removal.

Haha, this thread sounds like the plant section in Aquatic Quotient already!:D

Cheers,

Kenny

[Myron Tay]

Hi Kenny

I find this a strange adaptation in the battle for survival. I mean why take nitrogen from ammonium when there is plenty around already processed in the air? Non-terrestrial plants have no choice!

quote:Originally posted by Kenny Poh

Hi Myron,

I've read somewhere that terrestrial plants have a preferential uptake of nitrogen through the roots, while the aquatic plants would prefer to take them through the leaves and shoots. I think this got to do with the compound in which nitrogen exists, eg. NH3/NH4+, NO2, No3, etc.



Totally agree with the conclusion. Just putting in the information for everyone's benefit. Especially for those of us who are housing the females together in a species tank. Her suggestions might be worth considering for those interested. But for me personally, I just create enough of an environment that would allow me to neglect the tank for months on end and still have the desired water quality. It involves no substrate, java moss and a sponge filter. :)

quote:

Diana's book is good as a reference book, but I think for her system to work, it has a few provisos, which is inapplicable to our betta tank.

For Diana's system to work, you'd need the carbon to build up over time, through fish food and buildup of humus in a matured tank. And you're right that it is not meant for those plants that requires large amount of CO2 from the start, as by the time DOC (dissolved organic carbon) is allowed to build up, these plants would have perished.

In our small betta tank which is typically low lit, the nitrogenous waste product would have buildup much quicker than the plants can absorb. Thus, it is better to rely on efficient biofiltration and frequent water change to make sure that NH3/NH4+/NO2/NO3 do not build up. However, if you were just to compare using terrestrial plants vs aquatic plants, I'd go for the former.

That said, I think plants for betta tanks should be used as a supplement to proper filtration and frequent water change, instead of an absolute solution to waste removal.

Haha, this thread sounds like the plant section in Aquatic Quotient already!:D

Cheers,

Kenny

[Kenny Poh]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Hi Kenny

I find this a strange adaptation in the battle for survival. I mean why take nitrogen from ammonium when there is plenty around already processed in the air? Non-terrestrial plants have no choice!



You've got a point there. Let me search my books on terrestrial plants and confirm this.

quote:
Totally agree with the conclusion. Just putting in the information for everyone's benefit. Especially for those of us who are housing the females together in a species tank. Her suggestions might be worth considering for those interested. But for me personally, I just create enough of an environment that would allow me to neglect the tank for months on end and still have the desired water quality. It involves no substrate, java moss and a sponge filter. :)


Yeah, I used to do that too. But I find that java moss grew too slowly for my liking, and traps alot of debris, and rot as well. Now that I've restarted my hobby, my 2 ft fry tank is now lit 8hrs with a 36W PL tubes, and I've got some hygrophila difformis in there. I'll be adding some of the Kuan Yim Teck later on.

Cheers,

Kenny

[kennho]

Hygrophila difformis looks hardy but it's a plant that required strong light and mineral else the stem will rot fast and leaves floating. Will turn slightly yellowish and elongated leaves if insufficient nutrients. I got to know some China farms use it to remove N and P.

Nitrogen (N2) from atmosphere is inert gas which plant cannot make use of it. Plants required the organic form of N as in rain water (nitric acid), by-product of bacteria (NH3), and others mineralised N from soil. Intake of Nitrogen is thru the roots.

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Kennho,

Your explanation about the uptake of N sounds very logical.

i'm using hygrophila because such stem plants do not require any substrate, and also quite adaptable in all kinds of situation. I'm now providing it with enuff light, and will modify the conditions closely to see if any nutrient deficiency will set in sooner or later, of which I might switch to terrestrial plants with immersed roots, or add in the required nutrients, which seems like an expensive thing to do for fry tank.:D

Cheers,

Kenny

[Myron Tay]

My wife kind of settled the issue when she reminded me that we do not take in carbon dioxide for our carbon needs. She also remembers from her secondary school bio days that plants take in N from the roots. :)

Thanks a lot guys. It has been a most useful discussion. Where can I get some money plants, Kuan Yim Teck plants? Any other suggestions?

[Myron Tay]

Just noticed today that my bettas like to rest their fins on the java fern that I had placed in their tanks. Something that Peter Choo introduced to me and information I would like to share with everyone.

[Foo Hong]

Money plant? If anyone buys them you are a complete idiot ...kekeke.

Remember to delete the mail after reading...here it is..

When it gets dark, do down to the roads next to TCS caldecott hill.....and cut all teh cuttings from teh road divider you want...kekekekkekekekekkeke

[Kenny Poh]

Wah Foo Hong,

Dun like that leh! Can you imagine how fast those news reporter from Mediacorp can get to you?

I bet your family can even catch you 'live' on the 10pm news!

Kenny

[Foo Hong]

Actually I am helping to keep the city nice by trimming overgrowth...

Oh guys, and bettas luv to build bubblenest underneath the money plant leaves..............smooch money plant!

[Myron Tay]

Was the money plant taken from your betta tank? Eeeeuuuu....

[Foo Hong]

Anywhere , incl those that grow over the fence from my neighbour's house....thank vm

[Myron Tay]

Just spoke to Philip last night and learnt from him regarding the use of guanyinteck plants. He told me that the PH of the water in the tanks with the plants tend to turn acidic fairly quickly. He lives in the West. Can anyone else verify his observations?

[Foo Hong]

how could this happen, the plant removes nitrates and such.....

did phil accidentally pour lemon tea'same colour as ketapang solution] into his jar? [eb]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Just spoke to Philip last night and learnt from him regarding the use of guanyinteck plants. He told me that the PH of the water in the tanks with the plants tend to turn acidic fairly quickly. He lives in the West. Can anyone else verify his observations?

[Myron Tay]

Foo Hong

Have you checked the PH in your tanks with guanyinteck lately? Can help to verify?

[Foo Hong]

guanyintel has been supersided lately :D. Money plant and another godknowswhat is in!

PH meter dont know where I chucked it :D

[Myron Tay]

Any kind soul can help to verify the below, please?

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Just spoke to Philip last night and learnt from him regarding the use of guanyinteck plants. He told me that the PH of the water in the tanks with the plants tend to turn acidic fairly quickly. He lives in the West. Can anyone else verify his observations?

[kennho]

Myron, yes, it's true.

Once the water is dechlorinated, the bamboo will pick up the nutrients and soften the water. Provided that there are sufficient sticks and light to enable the plants to do the job.

Next to these bamboo that do the job is the pandan leave plants (but this one will attack mosquitoes).

[Myron Tay]

Thanks Kenneth. But is this drastic change good for our bettas in the long run? I can imagine that this happens after each major water change...

quote:Originally posted by kennho

Myron, yes, it's true.

Once the water is dechlorinated, the bamboo will pick up the nutrients and soften the water. Provided that there are sufficient sticks and light to enable the plants to do the job.

Next to these bamboo that do the job is the pandan leave plants (but this one will attack mosquitoes).

[Samuel Phan]

In the West
... water without the GYT PH7.0.
... rain water with GYT PH4.5.

Have not tried tap water with GYT ... will provide the results soon.

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Thanks Kenneth. But is this drastic change good for our bettas in the long run? I can imagine that this happens after each major water change...


Myron, for my case, I facing much worst problem with tap water.

The softening effect from plants is pretty gradual and not instant. The thing is how soft is the water with plants and how soon we change water. A lot of factors that are not studied in detail and relationship between all these are not known.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks Samuel. Can we try PH on day one after water change and what happens to the PH on day two onwards. Philip reports a drastic change.

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

In the West
... water without the GYT PH7.0.
... rain water with GYT PH4.5.

Have not tried tap water with GYT ... will provide the results soon.

[Myron Tay]

What's the problem Kenn?

quote:
Myron, for my case, I facing much worst problem with tap water.

[Samuel Phan]

Will do that ...

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Thanks Samuel. Can we try PH on day one after water change and what happens to the PH on day two onwards. Philip reports a drastic change.

quote:Originally posted by Samuel Phan

In the West
... water without the GYT PH7.0.
... rain water with GYT PH4.5.

Have not tried tap water with GYT ... will provide the results soon.

[kennho]

can I request for 2 important things before you do pH test. Please dechlorinate and take note temperature. Your initial result water without GYT is 7.0 a bit surprise me. Which Western part is that ?

Myron, my tap water is 7.8~8.0pH during different time of the day. Even hit high of 8.3 few weeks ago in the evening. I can never use direct tap for water change. Temperature of water seems to have crawl back to 28C recently. During rainy season, temperature 26C, pH very unstable. Chlorine level in the west side tends to be higher, so becareful on that.

[Samuel Phan]

Mine is not a PH meter ... I am only using the tester. So I dun think I will be able to provide a very accurate reading.

Btw ... PH meter ... any good ones to suggest?

[FredLai]

Must thank myron and ken for such a good discussion on plants! :) Well, no regrets joining BCS :D Great forum.

[FredLai]

Must thank myron and ken for such a good discussion on plants! :) Well, no regrets joining BCS :D Great forum.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Hi Kenny

I find this a strange adaptation in the battle for survival. I mean why take nitrogen from ammonium when there is plenty around already processed in the air? Non-terrestrial plants have no choice!

quote:Originally posted by Kenny Poh

Hi Myron,

I've read somewhere that terrestrial plants have a preferential uptake of nitrogen through the roots, while the aquatic plants would prefer to take them through the leaves and shoots. I think this got to do with the compound in which nitrogen exists, eg. NH3/NH4+, NO2, No3, etc.




Kenny

I think I have solved the conflict: all plants (both terrestrial and non-terrestrial) do not rely on nitrates and nitrate dissolved in water for the nitrogen needs. They only can take in nitrogen present in fertilisers / animal waste.

However, plants (both terrestrial and non-terrestrial) provide a platform (by increasing the surface area within the aquarium) for the cultivation of the beneficial bacteria. It is the beneficial bacteria that does the job of neutralising ammonia (refer to http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2152). I believe that Diana left this consideration out in her research. Plants, however, help to remove phosphates from the water, which would otherwise build up in your aquarium through the partial water changes. While phosphates are not toxic to fish, it would encourage the growth of unslightly algae in your tank.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

finally caught a glimpse of what infusoria is like. never knew they existed in my breeding tank. specky little dots darting about. not much but enough as small snacks for my young fellas. i guess they probably originated from my Java Fs and my other live plants. and yah, money plants does not seem to produce infusoria.
Interesting observation from Alex. Another reason to use non-terrestrial plants instead?

[Alex Lim]

Myron,

does money plants also help in the cultivation of nitrifying bacteria? i do not know if i should consider them as terrestrial or non-terrestrial because they can survive both in and out of water. in addition, money plants kept in tanks tend to be underwater with only the leaves exposed to air at the surface? please advise

[Myron Tay]

Money plants are terrestrial (non-aquatic) plants.

[Alex Lim]

so does n. bacteria resides in them?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Alex Lim

so does n. bacteria reside in them?
Alex

I believe that beneficial bacteria could be found in most aquaria through the introduction of aquatic plants or commercially bred live food. Not sure if they reside on terrestrial plants.