Breeding Melanos

[Foo Hong]

Oh yes.....melanos...yum yum....

[part 1 of 10]
Probably one of the most attractive of betta colours. Who doesnt like to own one? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

But before anyone start dishing out $$$ to start a melano line, pls be advised - melanos are what I personally term as one of the most unproductive lines to work. Why? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Because 1. you only get at most about 50% melanos in any spawn <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> and 2. assuming you get equal male/females.....only 25% will be melano black males <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> and 3. worst still, melano females are unbreedable to date..ie, useless! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>. So from whatever melano males you have from your spawn, knowing that most spawns only give you a handful of good fishes, how many nice melano males do you think you will get? <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Well, like everything, there is always a strategy to tackle all problems. :) he he....To be cont'd...............

[Foo Hong]

looks like my prediction of many people fancying melanos was wrong as there arent any replies <img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ok part 2 is here.

when we look at black bettas, to date, ,they are still not 100% black. I m talking abt HM here, not CT, although CT also do not have 100% black?

Why? Cos malano males are crossed to steel females. I see melano gene as having the ability to remove all the iridecence from the fishes' fins, resulting in the black layer of colour being exposed...hence the fish looks black escept the body which is often sprayed with steel iridecence. young fishes may look totally matt black and are very attractive, but teh irids colour soon appear on teh body. Not only in steel iridecence, melanos can also have royal or turq irid on tehir bodies instead if a melano male is crossed to females of such colour. Why is steel used, cos steel is most un-noticeable compared to other colours, blending into the black colour well.

next pls.

[Samuel Phan]

What about black laces ...
I have a single male and female that were thrown out from the marble spawn ... and he is really matt black with some irids ... but the black is really superb. But the tail is not up to standard. Was trying to spawn him but really got no time.

Will post the picture in my web site later ... maybe someone can comment on the fish. Is it worth trying at all???

The fish is in

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bettahan/lst?.dir=/Sam&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bettahan/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t

Alternativly ... locate "Sam" Folder in BettaHan forum Photo section.

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
looks like my prediction of many people fancying melanos was wrong as there arent any replies <img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ok part 2 is here.

when we look at black bettas, to date, ,they are still not 100% black. I m talking abt HM here, not CT, although CT also do not have 100% black?

Why? Cos malano males are crossed to steel females. I see melano gene as having the ability to remove all the iridecence from the fishes' fins, resulting in the black layer of colour being exposed...hence the fish looks black escept the body which is often sprayed with steel iridecence. young fishes may look totally matt black and are very attractive, but teh irids colour soon appear on teh body. Not only in steel iridecence, melanos can also have royal or turq irid on tehir bodies instead if a melano male is crossed to females of such colour. Why is steel used, cos steel is most un-noticeable compared to other colours, blending into the black colour well.

next pls.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Looks more like multi than a melano or black lace mate.

[Samuel Phan]

Hmmm ... really??? maybe the photo is too dark.
Maybe take a better pic before asking the question again ... =P
Anyway ... Dr Hsu saw the fish at my Open House ....
But din ask whether is it worth breeding ... but he did comment that the black is good ... but minus the Irids.

Thnaks for the effort ... mate. =)

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Looks more like multi than a melano or black lace mate.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Yes I do mean the amt of irids is excessive. i think my marbles span also got afew which looks like melanos at the moment.

[derrick kuah]

hi, my first posting here. foo hong, you are right on melano. i have a spawn which produced 300pcs(80 pcs black). finnages so so for black.i tried f1 x f1(melanoxmelano) results:zero so few(6 tries).i have a spawn of melano x steel. about 200pcs(5 wks) first they show black but turn rb now. what is wrong here.and i have another from blk x rb female(70 pcs) got about 10 pcs blk.what i should i do to improve finnage n blk from this line.at the moment, i m trying blk x marbled blk plakat female.#80

di di

[Foo Hong]

Wao Lao...what blk x rb and melano x melano......<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I dont know what fish you use that you gte so many combo. u shld be using steel/melano geno pairs or melano male x steel/melano geno female. steel siblings showing red is ok but the melano siblings shld not.

[derrick kuah]

ooh,... sorry, i did not make myself clear. what i did was, crossing the "f1" to ea other. blk xblk, blkxsteel,blk xrb.so far ,not successful(6 tries) with blk xblk. for blk x steel, i got good spawn which shown blk when young(up to 4th wk) thened turn rb, maybe they are some blk.i didnt check yet.a sea of blue. jarred a few, shown good finnages. for blk x rb, small spawn.(70 pcs) found 10 pcs blk(maybe will turn blue also),havent jar them yet(4 wks).trying to cross blk to my marbled plakat blk female.maran told me to cross delta to female plakat. by the way .ihad tried ,plakat male to female super delta.results,not very good,finnages ok but volume very small.look more liked fan tails.pls advice how to keep this melano lines going.++derrick++h

di di

[Foo Hong]

I am still terribly confused over your blk, steel, rb combos <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>. Anyway, to breed good melanos, my personal approach would be...colour wise, you need a dark melano male....yes super black all the way till teh edge of the fin. I had some of Atison's black but didnt want to line breed as I dont really like the colour at the egdes which gets lighter. The american blacks had better colour in my opinion. The steel female you breed into must not have excessive iridecence.

finnage is easier to manage, and is no different from other colours.

[Jung]

I'm trying something new with melanos. All along, steel has been used as a melano carrier, and the colour will never progress beyond the present standard, because in this way, it is impossible to ever be be rid of the irridescence. Must find some way to produce a fertile black... a few test crosses in progress - think one more generation should do it. Fingers crossed...

[Foo Hong]

It is technically possible. I wish you all the best.

[derrick kuah]

hi,my black delta x plakat blk(from marlbed spawn) hatched this morning.its fertile.will try another pair, to comfirm++anyone here,having the same result.anyway ,will post result++

di di

[Samuel Phan]

If your female is the plakat black and it is from the marble spawn ... then strictly speaking ... it is not a melano.

It should be called a black lace and their females are fertile just like other colours.

The intensity of the black on the laces will be less "Opaque" as compared to the true blacks (melano) ... you can tell by looing at the fins ... if it is see-thru and clear/transparent black ... then it should be a black lace.

Hope I am right on this ...

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan
quote:
hi,my black delta x plakat blk(from marlbed spawn) hatched this morning.its fertile.will try another pair, to comfirm++anyone here,having the same result.anyway ,will post result++

di di


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Hmmm, I like to know how many blacks or how are the blacks whne they grow up from this x to plakat <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

Original Message By Foo Hong - Moved From Breeding 'Melano' Thread

quote:
Think the previous thread must have been deleted by the good old 'techies', so restarting this one.

Who doesnt like melanos? [ not thy pizza ]
Doesnt a full black HM appeal to people of all ages?

But then, how to breed one of these luvable dude?

Heh! Just had a successful spawn which marks the start of my second attempt to work a melano HM [ hvg lost the 1st line...entirely a year ago...sob sob ]. Give me 6 to 7 months OK?

HMMmm, and how about the rest of you? looks like not many out there interested in this colour right?

[Chris Yew]

Well, I happen to read this posting sometime back as I recalled now on how to get the irridescense out of the melano line (article by Gene Lucas in June 2001 FAMA) in the Betta Genetically Speaking forum;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bettageneticallyspeaking/message/504

For those who are not members, here's the post;
"If you read the article by Gene Lucas in June 2001 FAMA regarding how to get the irridescense out of the melano line you might be interested in this.

I started on this project a year ago last October...after talking to Gene at the first PNWBS show in Portland. To sum it up, it worked. I finally have a flat black male with no irridescence..but unfortunately the fish I started with gave me crap for fins in the F2 so my wonderful tar black fish is either a nice veil tail or a poor round tail -- and I only got one male that is tar black with no shine.

You should read Gene's original article, but the crux of the concept is to outcross black to yellow to get an F1 that fish which are heterozygous for melano (m) and Spread irridescense(SI). Cross these to get an F2 which will have a small percentage that are homozygous for melano (1/4) and homozygous recessive for SI (1/4). So about 1/16 of the F2 would be homozygous for both of the traits.

In fact, what I was shooting for was homozygous for three traits, notred1 and melano and no SI. So about 1 in 64 fish. While this seems to have worked - I need to try again with fish that have better fins. Someplace I got some nasty veil stuff going on in the F2...which
neither the P1 or the F1 showed. I'd like to cross this male back to his mother, but Matt has convinced me that she is the one who who had the bad fins as his father is stunning Ultra delta with about 165 - 170 degree spread.&lt;br&gt;Also...regarding the article I mentioned. I did not get any yellow spotted fish like he had...although there was some yellow apparent in this male before the black intensified."





quote:
I'm trying something new with melanos. All along, steel has been used as a melano carrier, and the colour will never progress beyond the present standard, because in this way, it is impossible to ever be be rid of the irridescence. Must find some way to produce a fertile black... a few test crosses in progress - think one more generation should do it. Fingers crossed...




Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

Apparently from what I know, the spotted melano thing didnt quite work out very well.

[Foo Hong]

So who is/are doing melanos? Has melanos, intend to do melanos, gave up melanos, cant make up stupid mind...kekeke

[Urner Hoo]

currently i've got a double spawn of black x steel female. they're abt 3~4 weeks old now. double spawn meaning same male with 2 different steels. 2nd steel introduced when the 1st ran out of stocks for eggs.

well, i do know its not too good for line breeding purposes but the male is well horny [:I] and i'm kinda starting out breeding then.
so er......

anywayz, i like steel blue bettas, especially the kind with a lighter tone, and having black fish is the next natural thing in the gene package. so i dun really mind the bonus, with good finnage of course.

[Kelvin Tan]

why black devil plakat pure black still can give 100% black fries? female was completely black.

black ct i think also can give 100% black fries.

melano is different frmo black ct and black devil's black genes i guess

[Foo Hong]

once I saw during the initial CT madness at Rainbow Aqm a completely black CT.....really super colour....and was asking...why teh hack cant HM be like that.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks for the update on your black plakats, Derrick (taken from another thread). Believe that there is much potential to bring this up to SD and eventually HM. Keep up the good work!

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron .. my black plakat is almost stable now( i mean , the female is normal as other colour(fertile) and they breed quite true..almost 90%, will still throw 10 % of marbled black/white and b/w butterfly(my other line also from same line..black/white butterfly).
only thing i observed , the black is cleaned of irress on body, except for the rays on caudal;its will show blue on the rays when young(before 12-14 weeks) than lose them when grows into adult, total black.as for my b/w plakat , the females will "marbled out" into black when adult. when young ,all fries showed the butterfly pattern than changed to different pattern as they get older.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks for the update on your black plakats, Derrick (taken from another thread). Believe that there is much potential to bring this up to SD and eventually HM. Keep up the good work!

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Myron .. my black plakat is almost stable now( i mean , the female is normal as other colour(fertile) and they breed quite true..almost 90%, will still throw 10 % of marbled black/white and b/w butterfly(my other line also from same line..black/white butterfly).
only thing i observed , the black is cleaned of irress on body, except for the rays on caudal;its will show blue on the rays when young(before 12-14 weeks) than lose them when grows into adult, total black.as for my b/w plakat , the females will "marbled out" into black when adult. when young ,all fries showed the butterfly pattern than changed to different pattern as they get older.