Breeding Opaque Whites

[Foo Hong]

This will be an even longer thread than the extended red one by the time its done. So part 1 or 10 goes.....

Before we set off to discuss further, I will like to start by stating what the hack is opaque white vz. pastel white . opaque means ' no see through'. hence colour is 'thick'. A good opaque white must be matt white throughout, including the head. If you look down from the top, they resemble white koi carps. Pastel whites appear to represent a few things. I was told by an IBC judge that those with a shiny shine on their body/fins would be pastels. I also heard others saying those with a non white head are pastel bettas. Well personally as I am not keen in pastel whites, I would regard anything tht is not matt white, dilute in colour, or with a shiny surface as pastel whies.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now what I did right and wrong when I worked with opaques....That will be part 2 of 10. Again, fingers a bit tired[to be cont'd].....next pls <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

Hmmm ... Opaques? Such nice fish and no one actually comment on it???
Personally I have 1 spawn of Opaque Whites with parentage tracing back to Straits.

Still hope to see the results in 1 to 2 months time ... since they are now only 1 week old and the spawn size is about 200 ++ for now.

So far I have not seen any nice true HM Opaques with my own eye yet although in BettaHan .. I think Kelvin has got a small but nice spawn that turned out looking great (PG line)

Also ... pple have mentioned thatusing females with some red wash will probably give a whiter spawn with higher percentage of pure whites.

My male and feamle for the spawn are both very pure white ... so shall see it throws out lots of red wash in it's fries.

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
This will be an even longer thread than the extended red one by the time its done. So part 1 or 10 goes.....

Before we set off to discuss further, I will like to start by stating what the hack is opaque white vz. pastel white . opaque means ' no see through'. hence colour is 'thick'. A good opaque white must be matt white throughout, including the head. If you look down from the top, they resemble white koi carps. Pastel whites appear to represent a few things. I was told by an IBC judge that those with a shiny shine on their body/fins would be pastels. I also heard others saying those with a non white head are pastel bettas. Well personally as I am not keen in pastel whites, I would regard anything tht is not matt white, dilute in colour, or with a shiny surface as pastel whies.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now what I did right and wrong when I worked with opaques....That will be part 2 of 10. Again, fingers a bit tired[to be cont'd].....next pls <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

colours are passed on in breeding so I dont believe a female with red shld be used unless one has no other choice. Maybe the fish in question has 'red-loss', if so then it does make sense.

[Samuel Phan]

Hmmm ... ok ... anyway ... I used the best female that I could find in my breeding stock.

Both the parents are pure white ... will keep posted on their progress.

But one thing worth worrying .... I still cannot see their ventrals sticking out!!!!
Dunno at what size we can see the ventrals developed?
I have been constantly bugged by this problem. *Sigh*

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan
quote:
colours are passed on in breeding so I dont believe a female with red shld be used unless one has no other choice. Maybe the fish in question has 'red-loss', if so then it does make sense.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Why you whole life got no ventrals[oops I meant yr bettas]. Aye....fins, including ventrals are like hairs to humans. There are only certain places on you where hair doesnt start growing when you are still a 'fry'. Usually, one is quite hairy by the time he is born...so yr betta also should have 2 'hairs' hanging downwards or what is called ventrals.

I hope you didnt shave them.

[Samuel Phan]

Hahaha ... just imagine someone have ventrals sticking out of his chest ... =)

And you are right ... I have been bugges by the missing ventrals syndrome ... *Furious* ... *Mad*

Anyway ... I think I saw some fries with ventrals sticking out now (3 weeks) ... on the larger ones. Not very long ... but at least I see ventrals!!!! So at leastthat put me at ease abit since I have been very hardworking recently keeeping the fry tank water in good condition and stopped feeding them microworms.

wish me luck for the rest of the fries and all the other spawns ... esp the Extended Red spawn ... very eager to see some results from the spawn. Placing high hopes on it ...

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Why you whole life got no ventrals[oops I meant yr bettas]. Aye....fins, including ventrals are like hairs to humans. There are only certain places on you where hair doesnt start growing when you are still a 'fry'. Usually, one is quite hairy by the time he is born...so yr betta also should have 2 'hairs' hanging downwards or what is called ventrals.

I hope you didnt shave them.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Jung]

quote:Also ... pple have mentioned thatusing females with some red wash will probably give a whiter spawn with higher percentage of pure whites.

I think this one is anecdotal. Previously, when all the whites in S'pore had plenty of red wash (Holy Grail etc...). Due to the weirdness of the red loss gene interactions, this could have been possible (but by no means a consistent trend). (My limited experience: 2 spawns from same line, the one with parents having more red wash did indeed produce a higher percentage of white offspring) But ever since the proliferation of Goettner's line here, red wash is less of a problem already.

[Samuel Phan]

My 1 month spawn of pure Straits Opaques pair threw out lots of fries with Red wash ... they are now about 1.5cm.

Spawn abt 200 fries.

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan


quote:
quote:Also ... pple have mentioned thatusing females with some red wash will probably give a whiter spawn with higher percentage of pure whites.

I think this one is anecdotal. Previously, when all the whites in S'pore had plenty of red wash (Holy Grail etc...). Due to the weirdness of the red loss gene interactions, this could have been possible (but by no means a consistent trend). (My limited experience: 2 spawns from same line, the one with parents having more red wash did indeed produce a higher percentage of white offspring) But ever since the proliferation of Goettner's line here, red wash is less of a problem already.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Jung]

Sam,

1.5cm fry is still very young. Plenty of hope for red loss. Hope its not due to Straits giving you a female from another line.

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Jung,

Red loss??? not too sure on that.
Personally dun have experience with Red loss ... does it happen to Opaque fries???

I mean ... they started white ... then the red emerged ... are you saying that the red will disappear again if Red loss occurs???

Anyway ... have selected some bigger ones to keep for observations .. the rest I have poured into an out-door grow out tank ... will see them again in 1 month's time.

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Sam,

1.5cm fry is still very young. Plenty of hope for red loss. Hope its not due to Straits giving you a female from another line.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Yep thats red loss
from white <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle> to red wash <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> to white <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Jung]

quote:Red loss??? not too sure on that.
Personally dun have experience with Red loss ... does it happen to Opaque fries???

I mean ... they started white ... then the red emerged ... are you saying that the red will disappear again if Red loss occurs???

Anyway ... have selected some bigger ones to keep for observations .. the rest I have poured into an out-door grow out tank ... will see them again in 1 month's time.



Sam,

Yup yup... watch them <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>... One of the most interesting sights in betta keeping... mystery of the disappearing red! Even more amazing: recently had a black piebald (pitch black all over, except head... one of my "fertile black" experiments) start to lose his black colour, and became a black-white marble.<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Foo Hong and Jung,

Thanks for the info on Red Loss.
I have already selected some potential ones from the Opaque spawn and will observe them closely for trace of red loss.

But can I assume that red loss is something that is genetic too? Which means that only the good line of Opaques that possess the red loss genes will eventually shed their red?

Which means that this red loss thing do not occur to all betta ... Opaques in particular.

Also ... received an e-mail from a BettaHan member wanting to buy the whole spawn from me ... wonder what he is up to.
<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
quote:Red loss??? not too sure on that.
Personally dun have experience with Red loss ... does it happen to Opaque fries???

I mean ... they started white ... then the red emerged ... are you saying that the red will disappear again if Red loss occurs???

Anyway ... have selected some bigger ones to keep for observations .. the rest I have poured into an out-door grow out tank ... will see them again in 1 month's time.



Sam,

Yup yup... watch them <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>... One of the most interesting sights in betta keeping... mystery of the disappearing red! Even more amazing: recently had a black piebald (pitch black all over, except head... one of my "fertile black" experiments) start to lose his black colour, and became a black-white marble.<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Well buying the whole spawn from you save him time and bbs.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But I do not sell a whole spawn away cos he s not gonna pay me 150 bcusk for certain fries which may end up Hms. Probbaly seeking a deal at bargain price with eh hope that a fraction of them at least will be good.

Personally, I would not do that as I always take the best from every spawn and disposing the entire spawn this way defeats the purpose. Unless I lost so much $$$ at the casino. Seeing the development of the spawn also gives me a record which serves as a yardstick for teh next generations outcome. Just my personal thots, of cos its your call and your fishes. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

Well said ... Foo Hong :)

quote:
Well buying the whole spawn from you save him time and bbs.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But I do not sell a whole spawn away cos he s not gonna pay me 150 bcusk for certain fries which may end up Hms. Probbaly seeking a deal at bargain price with eh hope that a fraction of them at least will be good.

Personally, I would not do that as I always take the best from every spawn and disposing the entire spawn this way defeats the purpose. Unless I lost so much $$$ at the casino. Seeing the development of the spawn also gives me a record which serves as a yardstick for teh next generations outcome. Just my personal thots, of cos its your call and your fishes. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Samuel Phan]

Just an update ... the spawn is still with me ... because when asked about how much the person is willing to pay for the whole spawn of 200 pcs ... the person just stop replying to the mail.

Probably not a keen buyer anyway ...

Anyway ... back to the topic for this thread.

As mentioned before ... my Opaque spawn threw out quite a fair bit of red wash initially and later both Foo Hong and Jung pointed out that Opaque spawns will normally experience Red-Loss.

True enough ... the red-wash are disappearing ... and producing pure Opaque fries. They are now about 2 cm and growing well in a out-door grow-out tank.

But one observation that I have made is that in areas where the Red-wash once appeared ... when they disappear ... what is left behind are transparent areas. Thus discounting on the overall Opaque effect of the betta.

Anyone with the same experience?

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Well buying the whole spawn from you save him time and bbs.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But I do not sell a whole spawn away cos he s not gonna pay me 150 bcusk for certain fries which may end up Hms. Probbaly seeking a deal at bargain price with eh hope that a fraction of them at least will be good.

Personally, I would not do that as I always take the best from every spawn and disposing the entire spawn this way defeats the purpose. Unless I lost so much $$$ at the casino. Seeing the development of the spawn also gives me a record which serves as a yardstick for teh next generations outcome. Just my personal thots, of cos its your call and your fishes. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Only 2cm?

[Samuel Phan]

around there ... kinda slow ... isn't it?
my marble plakat spawn actually grow better.

they were born almost on the same day.

quote:
Only 2cm?




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

whites usually grow slower.

[Samuel Phan]

Actually I checked this morning ... about 2.5cm lah.
And they are eating tubifex like crazy ... $1 per day. *Faint*

Imagine I have to buy at least $30 worth of worms per month not considering the frozen BW and daphnias I buy too. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

quote:
whites usually grow slower.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Samuel Phan]

The Opaque spawn is now at about 3 to 4 cm with about 60 to 70% being females.

Despite the good bloodline ... the male fries din inherite the good finnage from the father. Does that again support the sayings that normally finnage will follow the mother?

But amongst the females ... there are some with better finnage and some even have more than 120 deg caudal.

Maybe those will be the ones that will be used to do the F1.

Also ... saw a very nice Opaque HM at Straits ... and I really mean a HM. The external ray were thick and out-curling and the caudal has got at least 4 spilts. It is probably now in Penang entering for the MBC competition.



Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Dr Hsu]

Probably the one that won!

For all we say about Straits fish, you have to admit that they have produced some winners - results from IBC convention and Penang show prove it.

Sometimes, gets me thinking that if we were to send some of our best fish for IBC competitions, the Americans would not be hogging the limelight!

Possible future benefit of BCS - arranging shipments of fish for overseas competitions. All of us find it intimidating to send fish individually but if the shipping, etc could be pooled and handled by someone else (BCS), then I'm sure many more will send fish!

Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

[Samuel Phan]

Hey ... good idea.

It will motivate more local breeders to produce better fishes.

Also ... we will have more competitions to enter year round.

quote:
Probably the one that won!

For all we say about Straits fish, you have to admit that they have produced some winners - results from IBC convention and Penang show prove it.

Sometimes, gets me thinking that if we were to send some of our best fish for IBC competitions, the Americans would not be hogging the limelight!

Possible future benefit of BCS - arranging shipments of fish for overseas competitions. All of us find it intimidating to send fish individually but if the shipping, etc could be pooled and handled by someone else (BCS), then I'm sure many more will send fish!

Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

I am already intending to send some in Aug/Sept to 'test the water'.. I also personally believe the USA fishes and ours do not differ very much. for their population only about 5 breeders are really good.

[Samuel Phan]

Sounds interesting ... but do we need to be IBC members to compete?

quote:
I am already intending to send some in Aug/Sept to 'test the water'.. I also personally believe the USA fishes and ours do not differ very much. for their population only about 5 breeders are really good.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

I am IBC member anyway <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> and also IBC chapter-HM breeders club mbr <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Samuel Phan]

You are a true betta fanatic.

So now is already August ... sending any fishes fro the IBC competition?

quote:
I am IBC member anyway <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> and also IBC chapter-HM breeders club mbr <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

The irids are being spawned currently so ntg to show. But will probably send 2 opaques there to try.

[Samuel Phan]

Good luck then ...

quote:
The irids are being spawned currently so ntg to show. But will probably send 2 opaques there to try.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Posted a few pictures of opaques on my photo album. Still have some photos of other fishes in same spawn. will post them when i have time.

These are F3 of a Goettner/Lewin cross. Hundreds of bettas have been culled and numerous spawns and other undersirable lines have been culled to get this far.

Can be further improved still.

[Foo Hong]

Posted a few pictures of opaques on my photo album. Still have some photos of other fishes in same spawn. will post them when i have time.

These are F3 of a Goettner/Lewin cross. Hundreds of bettas have been culled and numerous spawns and other undersirable lines have been culled to get this far.

Can be further improved still.

[Samuel Phan]

Guys ...

I saw the fish with my own eyes. I think this is probably the best Opaques I have seen so far. Perfect!!!

[Samuel Phan]

Guys ...

I saw the fish with my own eyes. I think this is probably the best Opaques I have seen so far. Perfect!!!