Chlorine/Chloramine

[Foo Hong]

Chloramine - I once asked the Water Works if they add chloramine to our tap water. No is the answer. I ve tried using dechlorinators which only removes chlorine but not chloramine. Some fishes don

[Dr Hsu]

My partner asked PUB about chloramine 8-10 yrs ago and the answer was "yes", and apparently quite a bit too. Don't know if things have changed.
Afte watching last night episode of X-files, chloramine has just jumped to the top of the list of bas stuff in water :)


Regards,

Li Chieh

[Jung]

Hi Dr LC,

You are breeding betta in a partnership? And were working on it since 10 years ago? Amazing...(correct me if I'm jumping to conclusions...)<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Dr Hsu]

My partner in my practice - he used to be seriously into Discus 10 yrs ago or so. Good bettas weren't available in those days....used to see those great colors in FAMA 15 yrs ago but you couldn't get any of them here.

Regards,

Li Chieh

[Foo Hong]

On chloramine, we must be careful when purchasing dechlorinators. Not all of them get rid of chloramine. Read thy instrucion ! carefully :)

[Chris Yew]

So, what's in our PUB water?
Take a quick check here;
http://www.pub.gov.sg/ws_potable_water.htm

http://www.pub.gov.sg/brought_to_you.htm

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com

[Foo Hong]

they mention of fluoride! Why would betta need fluoride? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

I once asked tetra corp would their products take care of fluoride, and got the best answer....no they dont hurt fishes!

Doctors can we confirm?

[Myron Tay]

How has newater changed our analysis above?

[Kenny Poh]

I was told by some friends recently that some chemical agents were added to counter the possibility of biological terrorism. Wonder what would that be?

As for flouride, they're added as they're anti-cariogenic, ie. protects the teeth from decay. Flouride (Fl-)anions are exchanged with the hyroxl (OH-) anions in our inorganic tooth structure (hyrdroxy appatite) in the enamel and dentine, and render the structure more resistant to organic acids released by the metabolism of the bacteria on our tooth surfaces. If I'm not wrong, the concentration of the flouride in our drinking water should be about 0.7ppm, which is already causing discolouration to our teeth, a syndrome call flourosis. This renders the enamel with chalky patches, but is however, not harmful.

However, I don't think the concentration would have any adverse effects on our fishes, since it has been incorporated for more than 30 yrs in our water.

Cheers,

Kenny

[kennho]

2 chemicals that are possible and highly effective against "water terrorism" is Chlorine Dioxide and Hydrogen Peroxide.

[kennho]

Under WHO guideline, total chlorine should not exceed 250mg/L and monochloramine not exceeding 3mg/L.
Local water, using the west part of Singapore is 100mg/L max, most of the time, less then 50mg/L.

Effectively Sodium Thiosulphate could have taken care of most of the chlorine in the water. However, due to the instant reaction between thiosulphate and chloramines, free ammonia will be the by-product. Activated carbon is no as effective. Zeolite will be a better choice to pick up the ammonia.

The question : how you dechlorinate the water and what precautions did you take on the ageing process of storage water.

[Foo Hong]

Would the free ammonia escape into the atmosphere?

[Kenny Poh]

I seldom use any dechlorinator, just straight from the tap. For my 430L planted tank, I do 50% water change once or twice a week, which houses my 16inch arowana and many other fishes.

I think the chlorine is not the killer due to its small amt present in the water, but rather I'm more afraid of other unknown chemicals and heavy metals present in the water, esp. lead and copper.

So far, I've got a few friends whose fish just flipped over and die even before water change is completed. Another 2 I encountered in the arofanatics forum had aros with badly affected skins where it looked like burn marks on them, slime coat was obviously affected. I don't think such things can be attributed to chlorine or chloramine.

Kenneth, any idea what else could be lethal in our tap water?

Cheers,

Kenny

[kennho]

Planted tank hor ... :) got something that all the fishes love. And in abundance of it, the fishes are stronger and less susceptical to diseases. it is Dissolved Oxygen.

Kenny, it's not something lethal in our water, but a simple process not taken care of when the fish is in our tank as it grow bigger. Mainly bacteria. Especially on fish that required a lot more oxygen, a simple water change could ignite the sudden boom and causes the fish turning upside down. If there is another chance, ask them to snap pictures of the gill filaments.

Most of the time I got to know such case happens to my friends' fish, I would look into their setup and correct their way of keeping and qurantine process. Chlorine is not the main culprit in most case, but the sudden change in water condition is. But anyway, chlorine is deadly. The Koi club will tells stories about the bad experience they have last year at the Koi competition.

Our local tap water quality is quite constant thru out the year except during wet season where chlorine level tends to rise. For those with copper/bass piping, chlorine will tends to erode these pipe and increase in dissolved copper. But seldom to an extend of toxic level. Just increase the anti-chlorine and do a test will do in most case. Anyway, for aro, the magical zeo liquid is a good solution for heavy metal absorption. Even I have some small conversation with a product guy from Zeo, he just dun want to reveal what's really inside sheesh. A small guess is something to do with Aluminium salt. Problem is betta somehow is not so sensitive to chlorine in term of health. I still cannot figure out much. But somehow it has effect on the fins.

I can't comment much on aro as I never have a chance to keep one. But acid burn is very rare to my understanding. Ammonia burn dun affect slime coat as fast as it attack the gill filaments. Let me get back to you on the burn marks, will try to find out.

These are my experience only hor.

[kennho]

Kenny, saw the pics of the scale darkening. It's likely a sudden pH shock which the sudden increase in toxicity in the water than destroy much of the fish protection. Also strong indication of a burn from the caudal fin. Not much info given, so difficult to really tell what are the major change in water parameters. It's a combination of copper, chlorine. Normally it's better to check the gill of the fish immediately if something can burn the slime coat, the gill is as good as gone case. Is this fish still alive ? Ahhhh another one Jurong area. West part of Singapore always got headache over water parameters.

[Foo Hong]

Sometimes it is best from my experience to just increase the antichlorine dosage, which I am told addition dose not kill. not sure any other harmful side effects.

The other day I 'sting' on anticholrine and added 1 drop to a jar i/o mt usual 2 drops......got a female which abt abt to go into the breeding tank......died in 2 hrs. seems to have lost slim on the frontal body protion. A melano male also off colour after water changes, saw the 'lost slim' syndrome....immediately change the water again and increase the anti chlorine this time, and added YP.....flaring in 6 hrs.......kekekeke

[kennho]

Foo Hong, other than Sodium Thiosulphate, there is another anti-chlorine agent. I don't usually like to mention it as it actually has some side effect. This chemical is commonly use in some branded anti-chloramine solution especially those use a few drops per 1gallon type. Overdose of most anti-chlorine will do no harm.

Be safe rather than sorry tio bo.

[kennho]

Foo Hong, other than Sodium Thiosulphate, there is another anti-chlorine agent. I don't usually like to mention it as it actually has some side effect. This chemical is commonly use in some branded anti-chloramine solution especially those use a few drops per 1gallon type. Overdose of most anti-chlorine will do no harm.

Be safe rather than sorry tio bo.

[Myron Tay]

I read that usually a double dosage of anti-chlorine would break down chloramine, but it leaves the harmful ammonia in the water. So have to get anti-ammonia.

Based on the PUB website provided by Chris above, only Chloride (as Cl) is added into the water. Think they do not use Chloramine. But also learn that more and more governments are using chloramine as it is more stable. Not sure if the website is outdated. Better check with all the PUB contacts we have.

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I read that usually a double dosage of anti-chlorine would break down chloramine, but it leaves the harmful ammonia in the water. So have to get anti-ammonia.

Based on the PUB website provided by Chris above, only Chloride (as Cl) is added into the water. Think they do not use Chloramine. But also learn that more and more governments are using chloramine as it is more stable. Not sure if the website is outdated. Better check with all the PUB contacts we have.


Local PUB water contains about 0.5-1.5ppm of Ammonia-Chlorine complex and about 15-70ppm of Total Dissolved Chlorine. Dosing the common anti-chlorine will break down the Chloramines without any extra dose. However, that will produce ammonia byproducts. Most test ammonia kits will not be able to detect this byproduct, likely result is SAFE level. Unless you use a precise detector will be able to find it.

Best to use plants or natural products to absorb this free NH3 in water instead of using some chemicals to bond it. Bonding of NH3 is unstable in some conditions.

[Phil]

Ken, in full concurrence with you. I have noted that plants be it water lettuce ot aquatic plant are pretty good in keeping water condition stable. You don't need to change water that often too.

quote:Originally posted by kennho

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I read that usually a double dosage of anti-chlorine would break down chloramine, but it leaves the harmful ammonia in the water. So have to get anti-ammonia.

Based on the PUB website provided by Chris above, only Chloride (as Cl) is added into the water. Think they do not use Chloramine. But also learn that more and more governments are using chloramine as it is more stable. Not sure if the website is outdated. Better check with all the PUB contacts we have.


Local PUB water contains about 0.5-1.5ppm of Ammonia-Chlorine complex and about 15-70ppm of Total Dissolved Chlorine. Dosing the common anti-chlorine will break down the Chloramines without any extra dose. However, that will produce ammonia byproducts. Most test ammonia kits will not be able to detect this byproduct, likely result is SAFE level. Unless you use a precise detector will be able to find it.

Best to use plants or natural products to absorb this free NH3 in water instead of using some chemicals to bond it. Bonding of NH3 is unstable in some conditions.

[ernest seow]

Guys, any way to keep plants healthy without any sunlight?? The place I keep my fishes are very dark most of the time. Bettas prefer the dark I think.

[Phil]

Ernest, you have to be selective of your plants. Java moss do well without sunlight.

[Myron Tay]

I would also recommend the almost indestructible java fern.

[Myron Tay]

I have been told by my reservist mate who works at PUB that they do not use chloramine.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Ronnie Lau

Its probably answered somewhere before but could any "chemistrically-conversant" people here enlighten as to how the Anti-Chlorine/Chloramine liquid removes the the chlorine and cholramine from the water. Better still if you could show us those "2CLH40 + 4PN2O = 3NCO2SGT + KKYLP" equations which though may seem like Martian to those "bo-tuck chemistry" ones, would ceratinly add assurance that we are not just pouring our money into H2O unnecessary....
Cheers.
The active ingredient in most conditioners is sodium thiosulphate. Found the answer here: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01377.htm

Question - Dear sir,
I am told that CHLORINE and CHLORAMINES are present in the tap water in my area. Unfortunately
these chemicals are not kind to aquarium fish. Many aquarium keepers (myself included) resort to
the use of chemical dechlorinators (cf. physical removal) such as sodium thiosulphate.

I have read that a by-product of the dechlorination is ammonia (also bad for fish). In order to understand what happens precisely, I would like to know the exact formula for the chemical reaction that occurs when sodium thiosulphate is used to rid water of chlorine and chloramines.

-----------------------------------------
The chemical reaction of thiosulfate and chlorine is:
2S2O3(-2) + Cl2 ---&gt; 2Cl(-1) + S4O6(-2).
There are other reactions going on also, because the CL2 is in equilibrium with OCl(-1) the
hypochlorite anion. The chloramines result from the reaction of ammonia and chlorine and/or
hypochlorite. They will be formed from ammonia generated in the fish tank
that come from waste products from the fish. Chloramines are very toxic, that is why there are
warnings on bottles of household ammonia and/or chlorine bleach not to mix the two.
Be aware that dechlorinating chemicals sold by pool supply stores use sodium sulfite (Na2SO3) as
the active ingredient the reaction product is sulfate [SO4](-2).
A simple and effective way to remove chlorine and chloramines from tap water is to boil it for 5 - 10 min. No chemicals needed. Be sure to let the water cool and stir vigorously because the
boiling will also deplete oxygen from the boiled water.
Invest in a chlorine monitoring kit available at any pool supply store. It is sensitive and reliable.
If you want to monitor the chlorine present in your tank and/or water reserve.

Vince Calder

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

I have been told by my reservist mate who works at PUB that they do not use chloramine.
Check that. PUB has admitted that chloramine is present in our tap water on its website: http://www.pub.gov.sg/home/Faq.aspx#Q16

Chloramine is dangerous to fish in that it passes through the membranes of the gills and into the blood stream where it binds with the iron in the red blood cells. This prevents the blood from transporting oxygen, which leads to lethargy and eventually death.