Over-halfmoons [ ie, >180 in caudal angulation]

[Foo Hong]

As usual, nothing here....yet!

[Foo Hong]

Hmmm quiet as ghost town.....

how about 201 deg HM for a change!

[Foo Hong]

Hmmm quiet as ghost town.....

how about 201 deg HM for a change!

[Sebas]

Wouldnt it be more appropriate to newly term fishes with tat kind of spread OHM= Over Half Moons

[Sebas]

Wouldnt it be more appropriate to newly term fishes with tat kind of spread OHM= Over Half Moons

[Foo Hong]

Yep agree...will change it.

So....no body likes them? too much spread ?kekeke

[Foo Hong]

Yep agree...will change it.

So....no body likes them? too much spread ?kekeke

[Kelvin Tan]

extended HM!!
http://arofanatics.com/members/zhiz22/newbetta/

[Kelvin Tan]

extended HM!!
http://arofanatics.com/members/zhiz22/newbetta/

[Kelvin Tan]

wonder how the fries will turn out cos i jsut spawn him with a matching female from the same line

[Foo Hong]

Shld get good results.

Spawning another pair here too this w/e.....fries explosion!

[Kelvin Tan]

pics here
http://arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52174

any one with nice female to exchange female with me? i wanna try to spawn the male with female from another line

[Myron Tay]

This I think is excessive and also makes it difficult for the fish to swim (I think):

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron Tay/200453144242_Royal Blue Over Halfmoon.jpg

[Toh Chen Han]

But if we want the fish to swim well we should have been contented with plakats. =) SOmetimes new things take time to catch on. But for now, I must admit that fish does look a bit wierd to me. Like the photo has been digitally edited or sth. If that dorsal/caudal leans forward anymore, that fish will be in danger of being confused with a hornbill!

[Foo Hong]

In my last spawn about 5 months back I had a turq male looking similar to this one in terms of teh tail. It looks great when it was 2 inch cos the tails was round like a ball. I showed it to henry Yin and he thot its a new strain. Later, as he finned out more the top corber of the caudal can be seen to not able to continue growing in the 200 degree direction and it sort of rounds off. So I had a 200D HM with rounded corners..!!! errrrr.....gave it to Roy to do his experimental spawns against dont-know-what-colours!

His siblings which were like 180 or 185 look much better.

[Phil]

I have a confession to make here. I have been quite taken by the the more than 180 degrees spread and had embarked on a breeding programme from the blue betta HM that was entered and won in the first competition. Even squabbled with Foo Hong about them over a year ago if i recalled. Well the truth is that this type of bettas are relatively weaker than the ordinary HM. While the finnage does not collapse like the other HMs at later age, it tends to twist when the betta hits 6 months or more. guess you can't win them all.

[Foo Hong]

Economic studies says there is such a theory as the law of dimishing returns. Machiam like Handphones, how small u want to get? until u cant even see the keypad?

[Foo Hong]

Wooow[eb].....once upon a time people were scratching their heads to get a 160 super delta. Now u see some 190 200 HMs...:D. Can see some of these on the internet n such. Problem is some of these were bred to the extend that they have become a bit akward looking. Many fishes develop very short fins and tending more to a plakat now :D The volume of fins seem to have shrunk!:(. While we use to hit for early branching of rays, adequate sets of rays and multiple ray branching in the tail, it seems that many fishes now sold over aquabid have been a little overdone. The same style of ray branching on a very small volume of fins give a very impressive look, but problems comes when the fish grows up.

[Markus Gutzeit]

Hello,

here is an link to an old movie from 1993 it is called chenmaswil(Laurent Chenot, Rajiv Masillamoni and Jeff Wilson). The movie was made from Rajiv Masillamoni to find new breeders for the halfmoon bettas and to convince the show judges that the halfmoon betta is the better fish to breed for, because he can swim better than any other longtail betta.

The halfmoon you see is a brother to the fish who won as the first halfmoon betta "best of show" in Tampa Florida 1993 ten years ago.

enjoy looking.

Greetings
Markus Gutzeit


http://www.bettasplendens.de/hmbettarajivundmarkus.avi

PS. the name of the link was given from the administrator of the German bettasplendens page.
Rajiv and I we breed bettas for 5 years to
getter and believe me he is still betta crazy, like in the beginning time of the halfmoon bettas. He is very happy that today the halfmoon bettas found a lot betta breeder world wide. Keep on your good work and enjoy the hobby.

[kennho]

quote:Originally posted by halbmondde

Hello,


Welcome to Singapore, Markus.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Philip Pang

quote:Based on what I understand, the current IBC standards do not consider OHM a fault.

Hi Myron, that's nice to know.

There was some casual mention from some betta hobbyists (which could have been inaccurate), that between a good HM and OHM in competitions, all else being equal, the former usually takes the honours. Does this stand corrected?

Of course Dave has his personal preference, as do I and the rest of us hobbyists, and, as does the IBC when it comes to judging betta competitions. They are all separate preferences. :D

But whether short or long tailed, I'd happily do with either caudal type in the collection. :D

Best

Philip
Based on the current results here in Singapore with a heavy emphasis on finnage, I would think that the Asian judges would definitely go with the OHM. Not sure how it would be over at IBC.

The reality is that such a situation is unlikely to exist. I believe that an overhalfmoon would always have a better finnage overall even in the other fins. Whatever gives a fish more finnage in the caudal tends to give more finnage to the other fins too.

[David Esguerra]

More finnage, yes, symmetry, not necessarily.

But that's exactly what I said in the other thread.

[Philip Pang]

Myron, I've only begun posting on the Forum, and I like the fact that the Forum tries to keep the posts to relevant threads - great idea.

The RB OHM pictured in this thread is certainly a quality fish, but it's a bit of an overkill where the caudal spread is concerned, and with rounded caudal points, doesn't seem quite as nice as Derrick Kuah's blue butterfly OHM, with its straight edges and pointed caudal tips, pictured in the Forum's homepage.

The problem with OHMs is that no one really knows what the yardstick to judging them is, as an example : just how much off tangent should the caudal edges be from the 180 degree plane? 5% for me just about does it, nothing more, but I'm well aware measuring it by percentages is at best inaccurate. The good thing about the classic HMs is that the caudal form is either 180 degrees, or it isn't. It has straight edges, or it doesn't. TK Lee's article on the merits of a "good and proper" HM is probably the most succinct and detailed article I've had the privilege of reading to date, and for me his is the yardstick by which I would rate HMs if purchasing one, or in the unthinkable eventuality that I get to become assistant judge in my next life. :D

Dave, spot on.

[Myron Tay]

Just to give the context to our discussions, this is the fish that Philip was referring to:

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Myron%20Tay/2004627201326_Grand%20Champion.jpg

I agree with David. More finnage may not equal better symmetry and that should be factored into consideration. Asian judges should not be carried away with the Asian fixation on finnage alone.

[Philip Pang]

That's a gorgeous blue butterfly and I heard it looks even better in the flesh.

[sylwester]

IBC standard says 180 degrees is ideal. 185 degrees is then just as desirable as 175 I guess.

[David Esguerra]

Did I already say I was beginning to be a real fan of Derrick's work?

At any rate, the over emphasis on the caudal has had its own set of bad effects on the betta gene pool.

I don't know if you have ever seen such a fish but I while back I saw a fish on aquabid or another forum that had splendid OHM caudal, the caudal was even symmetrical, however the dorsal looked a bit like the dorsal of a typical VT. Now I don't know about you but between a symmetrical fish and a fish with a splendid caudal only, I'd personally pick the symmetrical fish, even if it was just a SuperDelta. But again, that's just my opinion coming out.

[Ramon]

Hi there,
from my latest spawn there is a nice OHM male emerging. But from him - and from the pics I can see here as well - there are no straight caudal edges, they all seem "curved" towards the head especially like the blue one myron posted. is this a necessary trait to be able to become ohm, or a fault or how do we have to consider this ?

greetings
ramon

[Myron Tay]

Ramon

Have you considered the grand champion butterfly I have posted above? He seems to contradict the need for the trait you seem to be referring to?

[David Esguerra]

Actually, if you're gonna be strict about it Myron, the upper part of the caudal indeed does not have a straight edge, but its still a good fish.

BUt then again, by "strict" I also mean "ideal" and the ideal is not really something in the real world.

[Ramon]

Myron,

sure the butterfly's caudal is more straight on the edges than most other ohms I have seen so far. but still, like David pointed out, it is not perfectly straight, especially the upper part. And I wonder if this is necessary. Or is it just a common "fault" that can be worked on.
What do you think ? Anyone has pictures of a ohm with straight caudal edges (i.e. outer rays) ?

Greetings
Ramon

[David Esguerra]

I'm also curious as to an OHM with straight edges in the strictest sense of "straight edges". I have already said in my very small humble opinion, I find OHM a fault. Only now did I realize that I haven't seen an OHM with edges as straight as the best HM specimens, by far, the fish pictured here is the straightest OHM I have ever seen and as I have already said, if you would be strict about it, its not really that straight. So, any OHM with straight edges? I think that this "fault" of not having straight edges could still be fixed with the proper breeding programs.

But having said all that, I still think that this (Derrick's fish)is still an excellent fish and to date, I have yet to see an OHM with straighter edges than this fish as well as very distinct color and pattern.

[Ramon]

Excerpt from EHBBC Standard www.ehbbc.de
[i]
a. Standard Halfmoon (HM)
Dorsal (dorsal fin)The dorsal fin should full with a broad base and as much as possible branching of the rays. The fin should be full-blown in a good proportionally area and not run out in individual rays. Ideal is from the beginning in the centre of the back of the fish, rising a little forward (to the head), then parallel to the body and from the end of the beginning on in a soft elbow dropping, whereby the angle between the plumb bob of broadest setting to the fish backs and the rear conclusion of the fin 90?

[Myron Tay]

Learnt something new today. Guess I have not been noticing the straightness of OHM caudals too closely.

[Ramon]

Not quite the quality of the above, but since he is just 2.5 months old he still has some growing to do ;)

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Ramon/200481055753_1123.jpg

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Ramon/200481055827_comments.jpg

[gtkang]

Hi! All,
Attach picture of OVHM Rosetail as what most people name it, for me i dont fancy this triat because this fish having balancing problem and is difficult for spawning.

http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/gtkang/2004815213918_red ovhm.jpg

[Ramon]

gtkang, thank you for that picture. this fish shows the straight outer rays I was looking for. actually it is the first ovhm with really straight edges, if my eyes do not betray me. awesome :)

[Myron Tay]

Awesome fish finnage-wise, Mr Kang, in spite of the rosetail.

[Alex Lim]

Mr Kang,

it's the straightest caudal of a red OHM i've seen. [col]

back to the topic, IBC states "Caudal fins that exceed
180 degree spread are not favoured over fish displaying 180 degree spread".

just for information

[Chris Yew]

That's why it's important to specify clearly what is desired : in this case IBC does not favour the OVHM.

But the EHBBC has their own separate standard;
[quote]quote:Caudale (caudal fin) The caudal fin should be very broad in the basis and should be able to be spread at least 180?

[sylwester]

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

That's why it's important to specify clearly what is desired : in this case IBC does not favour the OVHM.

But the EHBBC has their own separate standard

IBC general standard states clear that the ideal is 180 degrees. Hench 185 would be just as great as 175 according to it.

EHBBC standard is called "HM-standard" and states at least 180 degrees, but I haven't seen what the standard preferes. Does anyone know what the ideal spread is in the EHBBC HM standard?

[Chris Yew]

EHBBC states clearly that for HM category, the caudal spread should be nothing less than 180 deg. That means 175 deg will not be accepted as HM. For OVHM, it's as what I've quoted earlier.

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

That's why it's important to specify clearly what is desired : in this case IBC does not favour the OVHM.

But the EHBBC has their own separate standard

IBC general standard states clear that the ideal is 180 degrees. Hench 185 would be just as great as 175 according to it.

EHBBC standard is called "HM-standard" and states at least 180 degrees, but I haven't seen what the standard preferes. Does anyone know what the ideal spread is in the EHBBC HM standard?

[sylwester]

Chris:
I think you answered this one a little quick. The EHBBC standard doesn't state what is favoured, only that less than 180 is not according to it. That doesn't mean that OHM is preferred over HM.

The 175/185 think was an example for the IBC standard.

[Chris Yew]

Maybe. But personally I preferred standards to be in table and points and straight forward type - easier to understand and difficult to misunderstand hehe. However, I didn't mentioned that EHBBC preferred OVHM over HM, guess you misunderstood me.

Ok, here is the extract from EHBBC;
[b]Caudale (caudal fin) The caudal fin should be very broad in the basis and should be able to be spread at least 180?

[Owen]

http://www.okanaganbettas.com/images/bluedtm2.jpg

This male is a rosetail.. He carries his DT finnage extremely well-- although, he is a young fish.

Owen

[Ramon]

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

Can I interpret it as minimum is 180 deg to be classified as HM? If you read further, OVHM is tolerated to certain extend while anything less than 180 deg is not accepted.


Yes, you can, but still the D- shape is the optimum. But with less or more than 180 a fish could still win, it is not a major fault, it is in the judges hands, the key word is "should" have. The rays of HM are supposed to be straight, but the standard says only, that in case of an OHM, a slight curvature of rays is acceptet.
In consequence:
<=180 with slightly curved rays = fault
>180 with slightly curved rays = no fault

But I will try to find out by asking some fellow members.
Next month at the EHBBC exhibition I will try to get the fish I postet judged in terms of body and finnage , so I can figure it out myself ;)

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

Chris:
I think you answered this one a little quick. The EHBBC standard doesn't state what is favoured, only that less than 180 is not according to it. That doesn't mean that OHM is preferred over HM.

The 175/185 think was an example for the IBC standard.


Right, it says nothing about preferrance. A good OHM with slightly curved rays could still win over HM with perfect 180 and perfect straight rays. It's not just the caudale that makes the trick ;)

Ciao
Ramon

[Ramon]

It is actually like mentioned before. Marion, the chairman (should I say chairwoman ? ;) ) of EHBBC told me, that neither form is preferred over the other.

In future the "slightly bended rays in case of an OHM" will not be tolerated anymore without penalty in shows. Mr Kang demonstrated that it is indeed possible to breed OHM with perfect straight rays and therefore the standard will be changed towards this feature. But looking back when the standard was written, OHM showed bended rays and therefore this "bonus" was necessary to equal the chances for both HM and OHM.

Ciao
Ramon

[Ramon]

It is actually like mentioned before. Marion, the chairman (should I say chairwoman ? ;) ) of EHBBC told me, that neither form is preferred over the other.

In future the "slightly bended rays in case of an OHM" will not be tolerated anymore without penalty in shows. Mr Kang demonstrated that it is indeed possible to breed OHM with perfect straight rays and therefore the standard will be changed towards this feature. But looking back when the standard was written, OHM showed bended rays and therefore this "bonus" was necessary to equal the chances for both HM and OHM.

Ciao
Ramon