Review of the NBC and ABC

[Chris Yew]

Guess it's good to have members and not juz the comm. to review both the competition as this will help the BCS to improve on it. Be it good or bad, voice it out and we shall see which is workable and which is not.

1. Judging criteria and standard
I personally do agreed that consensus judging is not the best method but due to limited time in preparing the points system and insufficient technical knowledge, we have to give it a go ahead.

During the meeting with the other 3 founders of the ABC, we agreed that Henry Yin will write on the specifications of CT, Atison will do the Plakat while TK Lee will fine tune the HM spec. With all this spec., the judging standard and criteria will be easier juz like the dog show.

Points to note for points system judging;
- The most beautiful fish may not end up be the winning fish.
- All the judges must be familar with the spec. and judging standard and criteria. So they must be given a set a least a month before the competition.
- As have experience before in the points system judging, the judge must not set the placing of the winning fish first and adjust the points to meet the placing. This was done in one of the competition that I've witnessed. So judges 'quality' are also important. If the judges are not up to standard, then whatever system we used are also useless.
- We do not have many or even a few good qualified judge in the betta scence locally and in this region.
- I'm surprised to hear from Nichol that Mr.Tsukahara (Totoro) is IBC appointed judge in Japan. If I'm awared of that earlier.......

2. Judges should not judge if they are taking part in that category
This I'm sure who you guys are referring to, and it's part of my responsibility that I've not taken care of that issue. I was the one doing benching in for all the ABC participants, and onli at the point of benching in that I know which fish belongs to who. But during the judging time, I really do not know why I've forgotten about it and let them carry on judging. I should have been more careful about it. As Mr.Atison has mentioned during judging, he said he will not take part in the competition that he's judging.

3. Consensus Judging
I also do not like this method as out of the panel of judges, the one that is more vocal will tend to lead the rest. Those with lesser experience will juz followed thru and it often result in less fairer way in judging though it's much faster. Probably in future competition, we should not let time factor decide which judging method to use. This judging method do not encourage hobbyists to breed good fish themselves to take part in the competition.

4. Venue
Think a shopping centre will attract more crowd than a c.c. though it's costly, and the security may be a problem. Thus the sponsors stall may have more business compare to a c.c.

5. Fish sale and auction
The results are disappointing due to bad weather, poor crowd and high pricing. Most of the owners are pricing their starting bid too high to attract the bidders. Also probably too many recent sales of bettas are held before and during the competition.

6. Grand Champion
Some said that a grand champion should not be a female and should be from the STM or DTM categories. Well, personally I feed that the Grand Champion is the Champion of all Champion regardless of which categories - be it Wild, Plakat or Female, etc. The judges agreed to choose from the rest of the categories as there is no major breakthrough in the STM,DTM and CT categories.

7. Wild category
Personally I don't think we should have a Wild Category in a betta competition though IBC may have it. I think that a Wild must be wild and not breed in captive or whatever. So the one that can afford it may purchase a very good wild betta and no effort is spent on breeding it. The Wild category is good for exhibition and in commercial competition like the Aquarama. But as BCS aim is to promote the quality of show betta, we should not be too engross in Wild at the moment as most are just simply buying it and put them on competition. Also the number of entries are far too few. Same goes for those cross breed between imbellis and plakat or whatever. There will be no end to it if we keep on increasing the categories but with no perfection on it.

8. Double Tail, Plakat and CT.
This 3 categories I feel that there's no major improvement over the last competition. In fact, the standard of double tail and CT is not much better than the previous one. The plakat is something that I'm rather disappointed with. I've seen lots of crosses of a pure plakat and HM to achieve bigger caudal and better spread. One can really tell that it's not a pure plakat breed and personally I feel that a plakat must be judged as a pure plakat and not a 'mixed blood'. It is like a HM with little spikes at it's caudal outer edge.

The above are juz my personal thoughts for discussion.

[Dr Hsu]

Good analysis of the competition and I do agree with what you have mentioned. A common standard is needed for the hobby to progress as we can all aim towards a common goal and in the process, reach it faster. Nothing much else to add.

I may be wrong but I don't think Mr Tsukahara is an IBC judge. Perhaps it was JBC? IBC does not appoint judges - they have to undergo an apprentice program in which attendence at judging forums (given by current judges) and understudy at least 2 "international" IBC shows. But....I may be wrong as I haven't seen the full IBC judge's list.

[Dr Hsu]

Good analysis of the competition and I do agree with what you have mentioned. A common standard is needed for the hobby to progress as we can all aim towards a common goal and in the process, reach it faster. Nothing much else to add.

I may be wrong but I don't think Mr Tsukahara is an IBC judge. Perhaps it was JBC? IBC does not appoint judges - they have to undergo an apprentice program in which attendence at judging forums (given by current judges) and understudy at least 2 "international" IBC shows. But....I may be wrong as I haven't seen the full IBC judge's list.

[Chris Yew]

I'm too surprised to find out about it. Juz as Nichol and Benjamin able to speak Japanese and know him well. Albert able to speak Thai and knows Atison and his gang well. No one tell me that we have a team of interpretor in the club.

[Chris Yew]

I'm too surprised to find out about it. Juz as Nichol and Benjamin able to speak Japanese and know him well. Albert able to speak Thai and knows Atison and his gang well. No one tell me that we have a team of interpretor in the club.

[Dr Hsu]

Ha,ha....Albert only speaks a little Thai....still not very useful when it comes to bargaining at Chatuchak! Still, much much more Thai than me....

[Dr Hsu]

Ha,ha....Albert only speaks a little Thai....still not very useful when it comes to bargaining at Chatuchak! Still, much much more Thai than me....

[Kelvin Tan]

i am curious what a pure plakat would be? heart shape tail? cos eventually ppl would still think a plakt with a perfect HM tail being the nicest....

anyway the marble female ct wasnt exactly any major breakthrough either. and if nobody point out, no one would have known its the grand champion cos its not eye catching. if its a male version, that could have been better but may not win either.

come to think of it, other than HM or over-Hm and cross rays CT, what other breakthrough can we have?

[Kelvin Tan]

i am curious what a pure plakat would be? heart shape tail? cos eventually ppl would still think a plakt with a perfect HM tail being the nicest....

anyway the marble female ct wasnt exactly any major breakthrough either. and if nobody point out, no one would have known its the grand champion cos its not eye catching. if its a male version, that could have been better but may not win either.

come to think of it, other than HM or over-Hm and cross rays CT, what other breakthrough can we have?

[Steven Cheng]

Hi Chris,

I feel that if BCS competition categories are fixed (e.g. exclusion of wild category or new hybrid) without provision for innovative breeding, then, a lot of beautiful fish like the Straits Crown Moon (CT plakat), maybe Imbellis HM etc would be excluded. It will also stifle development of new breed. What we can do is to restrict the number of prices in those categories to only one winner if there are too few entries.

As to the specifications of the categories, overall appeal must also be considered and be given points (this refers to your comment that the most beautiful fish may not win in the point system). One example on this would be Foo Hong's HM criteria versus TK Lee's. Foo Hong's fish would lose if TK Lee's specifications for HM are used and ultimately all HMs will look alike. Then, we will be encouraging conformity rather than innovation.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi Chris,

I feel that if BCS competition categories are fixed (e.g. exclusion of wild category or new hybrid) without provision for innovative breeding, then, a lot of beautiful fish like the Straits Crown Moon (CT plakat), maybe Imbellis HM etc would be excluded. It will also stifle development of new breed. What we can do is to restrict the number of prices in those categories to only one winner if there are too few entries.

As to the specifications of the categories, overall appeal must also be considered and be given points (this refers to your comment that the most beautiful fish may not win in the point system). One example on this would be Foo Hong's HM criteria versus TK Lee's. Foo Hong's fish would lose if TK Lee's specifications for HM are used and ultimately all HMs will look alike. Then, we will be encouraging conformity rather than innovation.

[Myron Tay]

Some personal thoughts:

Although there is a dearth of entries or poor quality of entries in certain categories, my view is that we should still continue to encourage the development of certain categories which we wish to endorse. The real question is which categories we should aim to encourage. Personally, I am for all the existing categories (ST, DT, wild, plakat and CT), although I do not have any any DT, wild, plakat or CT fish. Believe that there could be great stuff we can learn from fish in these categories. We should continue to encourage the development of such fish for the future.
My concern is the misshapen forms that I see in the DT category (some even in the fish entered for the recent competition) but I see that as a fish in development that might result in something wonderful in the future.

[Myron Tay]

Some personal thoughts:

Although there is a dearth of entries or poor quality of entries in certain categories, my view is that we should still continue to encourage the development of certain categories which we wish to endorse. The real question is which categories we should aim to encourage. Personally, I am for all the existing categories (ST, DT, wild, plakat and CT), although I do not have any any DT, wild, plakat or CT fish. Believe that there could be great stuff we can learn from fish in these categories. We should continue to encourage the development of such fish for the future.
My concern is the misshapen forms that I see in the DT category (some even in the fish entered for the recent competition) but I see that as a fish in development that might result in something wonderful in the future.

[kennho]

I tends to agree on both Kelvin and Steven. We are seeing breeders going towards cross breeding and many more exotic specimens and even wild specimens captive breeding. Such should not be ignored as these specimens provide new ideas. Like what I have asked several times, ct plakat still a plakat ? HM plakat a HM ? A dtct a dt or a ct when comes to competition ? maybe be next year, we might see HM copper Imbellis or maybe CT Imbellis. These could be the type of breakthru.

However Steven, fixed categories should still be around. Else we will be in a chaotic state of fish keeping, like louhan. Conformity or what, the showcase of quality fish will allow breeders to improve their lines or acquire better fishes and most importantly a breakthru in keeping and breeding much better fish.

Specification is a grey area. Just imagine 2 fishes that are extremely nice and one has FH's winning criteria and the other a sure winner in TKLee's eyes. What happen when both FH and TKL are the judges ? Now that's a question to be set in the next agenda not just for BCS, but for the ABC to consider.

More in my mind ... lunch time.

[kennho]

I tends to agree on both Kelvin and Steven. We are seeing breeders going towards cross breeding and many more exotic specimens and even wild specimens captive breeding. Such should not be ignored as these specimens provide new ideas. Like what I have asked several times, ct plakat still a plakat ? HM plakat a HM ? A dtct a dt or a ct when comes to competition ? maybe be next year, we might see HM copper Imbellis or maybe CT Imbellis. These could be the type of breakthru.

However Steven, fixed categories should still be around. Else we will be in a chaotic state of fish keeping, like louhan. Conformity or what, the showcase of quality fish will allow breeders to improve their lines or acquire better fishes and most importantly a breakthru in keeping and breeding much better fish.

Specification is a grey area. Just imagine 2 fishes that are extremely nice and one has FH's winning criteria and the other a sure winner in TKLee's eyes. What happen when both FH and TKL are the judges ? Now that's a question to be set in the next agenda not just for BCS, but for the ABC to consider.

More in my mind ... lunch time.

[Sebas]

Agree on the part of the judging. Chris, you are very right about judging part of the competition. Somehow, I think the judges werent 'on form' during the competition. After the whole judging and colored stars are pasted onto the tanks of placed fishes, i was really quite surprised to see that some fantastic fishes didnt get anything. Yes, the grand champion is an unique piece of fish, but how did the judges decide on the form of the fish? From what i remember, i dont think the female was flaring. Were'nt form and deportment part of the judging criteria too? And was breakthrough part of the criteria also? I am with all due respect to the breeder of the grand champion, but if the judges awarded it the grand champion based on what they felt and not based on the criteria, maybe we really need to look into coming out with the points system for the next NBC and ABC competitions.

I personally feel that shopping centres should not be considered as venues for any betta competition or exhibition. I understand that holding it in such a location will attract more people, and will improve the betta scene drastically. But unless shopping centres switch off their air conditioning, the low temperature will both directly or indirectly affect the fishes. This will not only affect the healthy of the fishes, it will also cause breeders to not participate in such events. We all are people who love fishes, and wouldnt want to see our self-bred fishes fall sick.

Lastly, I will like to ask 1 thing about the competition. Can anyone please point out to me the main objective of betta competitions? I am not saying that our competition is not good, but is there a chance we can finally have 90% participation of self-bred fishes rather than commercially bought fishes? I do not know how to drive my point clear, but i am sure most of you understand.

[Sebas]

Agree on the part of the judging. Chris, you are very right about judging part of the competition. Somehow, I think the judges werent 'on form' during the competition. After the whole judging and colored stars are pasted onto the tanks of placed fishes, i was really quite surprised to see that some fantastic fishes didnt get anything. Yes, the grand champion is an unique piece of fish, but how did the judges decide on the form of the fish? From what i remember, i dont think the female was flaring. Were'nt form and deportment part of the judging criteria too? And was breakthrough part of the criteria also? I am with all due respect to the breeder of the grand champion, but if the judges awarded it the grand champion based on what they felt and not based on the criteria, maybe we really need to look into coming out with the points system for the next NBC and ABC competitions.

I personally feel that shopping centres should not be considered as venues for any betta competition or exhibition. I understand that holding it in such a location will attract more people, and will improve the betta scene drastically. But unless shopping centres switch off their air conditioning, the low temperature will both directly or indirectly affect the fishes. This will not only affect the healthy of the fishes, it will also cause breeders to not participate in such events. We all are people who love fishes, and wouldnt want to see our self-bred fishes fall sick.

Lastly, I will like to ask 1 thing about the competition. Can anyone please point out to me the main objective of betta competitions? I am not saying that our competition is not good, but is there a chance we can finally have 90% participation of self-bred fishes rather than commercially bought fishes? I do not know how to drive my point clear, but i am sure most of you understand.

[kennho]

I just had a fishy meeting and well, the BCS competition was a talking point. To certain extend, a bit shock when I told them it's a female that took the grand stand. How can that happen ? A question was threw to the members.

Yes Sebas, that's one of the question I had in mind. What IS/ARE the objective/s of competition. Within a year, BCS held 2 competitions. And in less than 6 months, we will have another one in Malaysia and a big event in Singapore probably a few days after that.

When comes to a national level of competition, the judges or the criterias should suit to the level of appreciation at the particular representing club or organisation. Unless we are going to compete in a big play field where standards are set by a governing body, then participants must understand that's the rules of the game. When I relook at the entry form again, something crash into my mind " if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in".

One thing I am very happy about is the number of hobbyists winning the top prizes. Yes, that's the MOST encouraging thing to happen. I hated most is when top winners are from commercial entries. Not that I have any problem with that, but to encourage more breeders to continue excel in their keeping, breeding methods and to attract more hobbyists into this field, we need great examples from the present hobbyists such as Kelvin, Dennis, Sam, Foo Hong and other members. When commercial players are in the top, especially a dominating CT category, it's time for avid hobbyists to challenge that trophy.

So keep that fire burning.

[kennho]

I just had a fishy meeting and well, the BCS competition was a talking point. To certain extend, a bit shock when I told them it's a female that took the grand stand. How can that happen ? A question was threw to the members.

Yes Sebas, that's one of the question I had in mind. What IS/ARE the objective/s of competition. Within a year, BCS held 2 competitions. And in less than 6 months, we will have another one in Malaysia and a big event in Singapore probably a few days after that.

When comes to a national level of competition, the judges or the criterias should suit to the level of appreciation at the particular representing club or organisation. Unless we are going to compete in a big play field where standards are set by a governing body, then participants must understand that's the rules of the game. When I relook at the entry form again, something crash into my mind " if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in".

One thing I am very happy about is the number of hobbyists winning the top prizes. Yes, that's the MOST encouraging thing to happen. I hated most is when top winners are from commercial entries. Not that I have any problem with that, but to encourage more breeders to continue excel in their keeping, breeding methods and to attract more hobbyists into this field, we need great examples from the present hobbyists such as Kelvin, Dennis, Sam, Foo Hong and other members. When commercial players are in the top, especially a dominating CT category, it's time for avid hobbyists to challenge that trophy.

So keep that fire burning.

[Foo Hong]

Wahhh! read this thread until my eyeballs almost fall out......

Ok eyeballs back in place and fingers ready to type. Was talking to Atison and TKLee at the show. Happen to discuss the duration of our event. We could possibly shorten it further as it is very disheartening to owners after seeing their fishes overflared with torn fins in 1 day. Hence I would say shopping centres, while looks good, is probably a no-no....not to mention all those noise, music, itchy hands...and theif...which add more stress not just to fishes but the organising committee.

heh...some one made comparison of 'my HM stds'.....vs TKlee's. Axctually my standards are [ at least I thot ], IBC's stds...more or less. When setting stds, we must be impartial and set aside any conflicts of interest. Stda shld be set at the highest degree but achievable. Actually the IBC and Halfmoon breeders club have very good stds already. Just that their weightage in various criteria could be modified. No need to reinvent the wheel entirely. We have to take a piece of paper and draw a fish based on our stds and ask ourselves...honestly.....how will a fish look like in all these aspects....and decide whether these shoudl eb our criteria. Net net we want a high std, which is what spore is proud for.

Someone mentioned bred fishes vs. bought fish in the entries. I know where you are coming from, but then how do u segregate? almost impossible.....if someone feels that he gains satisfaction and is willing to acquire a fish for [hypothetically] $5,000 and entered it and win.....well so be it! some breeders buy fish with intention of breeding after the show, so is not 'wrong' to enter it first. If yr concern is that this may put upcoming breeders striving to breed a good fish becoming discouraged bcos he knows he is gonna lose to someone else that have deep pockets and able to buy all the best fishes in town, then perhaps u may feel better if I tell u this. One who only buys will probably not be able to breed well, due to lack of 'hands-on' in breeding. The results is either of two:- 1. subsequent outcomes from spawns will differ greatly from the winning parents and the quality of fish will be inconsistent. Bcos breeders who work their lines would after some time develop fishes which have a certain look. 2. He will only be buying more fishes at before each show [ nothing wrong with that actually ]. More money needed!

Abt the grand champion....nothing wrong...altho it wld seem odd. Afterall we didnt say " Best of show male". Its 'best of show' only. So female could win. But interestingly, someone mentioned...should innovativeness be the criteria for BOS. I thk the issue can be looked at from another angle. First we do not have a category for 'innovativeness'. The org comm have considered this n decided that we dont want to have one. The risk is that u create a category of...lets say "any other thing that flares" and there are no such descent entries. Point raised is good however. Perhaps we could consider like the beauty pageants.....some prize for Ms. 'friendly', Ms. Custome, Ms. Gungho, Ms. Colourful, etc....u name it. But just 1 single prize for such winners....if and only if there is a dersevred winner.

[Foo Hong]

Wahhh! read this thread until my eyeballs almost fall out......

Ok eyeballs back in place and fingers ready to type. Was talking to Atison and TKLee at the show. Happen to discuss the duration of our event. We could possibly shorten it further as it is very disheartening to owners after seeing their fishes overflared with torn fins in 1 day. Hence I would say shopping centres, while looks good, is probably a no-no....not to mention all those noise, music, itchy hands...and theif...which add more stress not just to fishes but the organising committee.

heh...some one made comparison of 'my HM stds'.....vs TKlee's. Axctually my standards are [ at least I thot ], IBC's stds...more or less. When setting stds, we must be impartial and set aside any conflicts of interest. Stda shld be set at the highest degree but achievable. Actually the IBC and Halfmoon breeders club have very good stds already. Just that their weightage in various criteria could be modified. No need to reinvent the wheel entirely. We have to take a piece of paper and draw a fish based on our stds and ask ourselves...honestly.....how will a fish look like in all these aspects....and decide whether these shoudl eb our criteria. Net net we want a high std, which is what spore is proud for.

Someone mentioned bred fishes vs. bought fish in the entries. I know where you are coming from, but then how do u segregate? almost impossible.....if someone feels that he gains satisfaction and is willing to acquire a fish for [hypothetically] $5,000 and entered it and win.....well so be it! some breeders buy fish with intention of breeding after the show, so is not 'wrong' to enter it first. If yr concern is that this may put upcoming breeders striving to breed a good fish becoming discouraged bcos he knows he is gonna lose to someone else that have deep pockets and able to buy all the best fishes in town, then perhaps u may feel better if I tell u this. One who only buys will probably not be able to breed well, due to lack of 'hands-on' in breeding. The results is either of two:- 1. subsequent outcomes from spawns will differ greatly from the winning parents and the quality of fish will be inconsistent. Bcos breeders who work their lines would after some time develop fishes which have a certain look. 2. He will only be buying more fishes at before each show [ nothing wrong with that actually ]. More money needed!

Abt the grand champion....nothing wrong...altho it wld seem odd. Afterall we didnt say " Best of show male". Its 'best of show' only. So female could win. But interestingly, someone mentioned...should innovativeness be the criteria for BOS. I thk the issue can be looked at from another angle. First we do not have a category for 'innovativeness'. The org comm have considered this n decided that we dont want to have one. The risk is that u create a category of...lets say "any other thing that flares" and there are no such descent entries. Point raised is good however. Perhaps we could consider like the beauty pageants.....some prize for Ms. 'friendly', Ms. Custome, Ms. Gungho, Ms. Colourful, etc....u name it. But just 1 single prize for such winners....if and only if there is a dersevred winner.

[Steven Cheng]

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Steven Cheng]

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Myron Tay]

Could that not be subsumed under the AOC in each category?

quote:Originally posted by Steven Cheng

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Myron Tay]

Could that not be subsumed under the AOC in each category?

quote:Originally posted by Steven Cheng

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Chris Yew]

Ah at last the BCS forum is alive! This is what I wish to see - more participation from members. Well done - a very good discussion.

One thing I wish to point out is that what I have posted is NOT FINAL, juz what's going on and what is going to be carried out by the ABC.

Whatever specs., standards and criteria written by anyone needs to be discussed further and agreed upon by all countries' representatives of the ABC before they are used in any competition. So don't get too worried if the specs. are TK's or FH's or whosoever.

I would like to suggest that more hobbyists or breeders can spare some time to come out with the specs. or counter propose existing specs. written by others - to encourage more brainstorming on what is the ideal spec.

The ideal spec. will not discourage innovation and encourage conformality as been raised by someone. The ideal spec. should be an objective or goal where all hobbyists work their fish towards achieving it. For example, a HM may be set at 180 deg. but a breakthrough is seen if it's more then 180 deg. or an improvement on the dorsal and anal fin. While maintaining the same finnage for HM or CT, new colors are developed like MG CT (though it's not new), improvement on the finnage of MG or orange or black, etc... - this should be seen as breakthrough in the existing categories. We have not done enough to achieve such breakthrough in existing categories - whether it's a self breed fish or purchased fish.

Competition fishes need to be judged against certain standard or criteria and not to an individual's fancy. So new strain or whatever you called it like CT plakat, CT imbellis, CT macrostoma, etc... - should not be too readily introduced into the competition categories. If the judges do not even know how to judge them, how are we be able to shortlist the winning fish? To encourage these new development, the club can have exhibition or roadshow for that purpose. A double tail discus may be new, but when placed in a competition, I'm not too sure that it will emerged a winner even though it breeds true.

As for the grand champion, the judges did not say that the female is a major breakthrough. The judges only said that there's no major breakthrough in the STM, DTM and CT categories. Maybe Myron did hear more carefully what the judges said as I'm like a 'walk corpse' during the judging - my ROM and RAM chips are dead, lol!

Kelvin, Plakat is my second love though I didn't spend much time on it. As the word Plakat simply means Fighting Fish from Thailand and does not gives much insight into how it should look like, isn't it. Personally, I much prefer the simple 'heartshaped' type of caudal but I'm not representative of all - so don't be mistaken. Before we can set standard or criteria for Plakat, we must agreed upon what is considered a Plakat in that category.

This will be an interesting read;
http://www.plakatthai.com/plakatthai.html
http://www.plakatthai.com/goodpattern.html
So after considering all these, it's plakat a wild too? Haha, don't ask me as I've no answers to it too. I'm still learning.

[Chris Yew]

Ah at last the BCS forum is alive! This is what I wish to see - more participation from members. Well done - a very good discussion.

One thing I wish to point out is that what I have posted is NOT FINAL, juz what's going on and what is going to be carried out by the ABC.

Whatever specs., standards and criteria written by anyone needs to be discussed further and agreed upon by all countries' representatives of the ABC before they are used in any competition. So don't get too worried if the specs. are TK's or FH's or whosoever.

I would like to suggest that more hobbyists or breeders can spare some time to come out with the specs. or counter propose existing specs. written by others - to encourage more brainstorming on what is the ideal spec.

The ideal spec. will not discourage innovation and encourage conformality as been raised by someone. The ideal spec. should be an objective or goal where all hobbyists work their fish towards achieving it. For example, a HM may be set at 180 deg. but a breakthrough is seen if it's more then 180 deg. or an improvement on the dorsal and anal fin. While maintaining the same finnage for HM or CT, new colors are developed like MG CT (though it's not new), improvement on the finnage of MG or orange or black, etc... - this should be seen as breakthrough in the existing categories. We have not done enough to achieve such breakthrough in existing categories - whether it's a self breed fish or purchased fish.

Competition fishes need to be judged against certain standard or criteria and not to an individual's fancy. So new strain or whatever you called it like CT plakat, CT imbellis, CT macrostoma, etc... - should not be too readily introduced into the competition categories. If the judges do not even know how to judge them, how are we be able to shortlist the winning fish? To encourage these new development, the club can have exhibition or roadshow for that purpose. A double tail discus may be new, but when placed in a competition, I'm not too sure that it will emerged a winner even though it breeds true.

As for the grand champion, the judges did not say that the female is a major breakthrough. The judges only said that there's no major breakthrough in the STM, DTM and CT categories. Maybe Myron did hear more carefully what the judges said as I'm like a 'walk corpse' during the judging - my ROM and RAM chips are dead, lol!

Kelvin, Plakat is my second love though I didn't spend much time on it. As the word Plakat simply means Fighting Fish from Thailand and does not gives much insight into how it should look like, isn't it. Personally, I much prefer the simple 'heartshaped' type of caudal but I'm not representative of all - so don't be mistaken. Before we can set standard or criteria for Plakat, we must agreed upon what is considered a Plakat in that category.

This will be an interesting read;
http://www.plakatthai.com/plakatthai.html
http://www.plakatthai.com/goodpattern.html
So after considering all these, it's plakat a wild too? Haha, don't ask me as I've no answers to it too. I'm still learning.

[Chris Yew]

Don't think we should mixed up AOC with Any Other Types - AOC is for color and types.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Could that not be subsumed under the AOC in each category?

quote:Originally posted by Steven Cheng

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Chris Yew]

Don't think we should mixed up AOC with Any Other Types - AOC is for color and types.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Could that not be subsumed under the AOC in each category?

quote:Originally posted by Steven Cheng

I agree with what Foo Hong said. "Innovativeness" means new and since it is new, there are no standards to judge on. We can give prizes for the most "photogenic", or "eye catching" fishes.

May I suggest an "OPEN" category for any other flaring objects, so that Crown Moons, celestials, skygazers, "Kok Tau", and maybe golden Imbellis HM can have a chance to show us what they have got and to see if they are accepted.

[Foo Hong]

Yep AOC is any other colour , not any other creature

[Foo Hong]

Yep AOC is any other colour , not any other creature

[Myron Tay]

I am just trying to see if we would really need a new category, because I see that Crown Moons would come under CT, Golden Imbellis HM could come under the Wild section, Kok Tau could come under any of the ST, DT, CT, Plakat category. Celestials and Skygazers could also come under the AOC of any category. My point is that we have enough room for creative entries which would win the prize if it is indeed a desirable trait already. I am concerned that an Open Category might not attract many entries or cannibalise on the other entries.

[Myron Tay]

I am just trying to see if we would really need a new category, because I see that Crown Moons would come under CT, Golden Imbellis HM could come under the Wild section, Kok Tau could come under any of the ST, DT, CT, Plakat category. Celestials and Skygazers could also come under the AOC of any category. My point is that we have enough room for creative entries which would win the prize if it is indeed a desirable trait already. I am concerned that an Open Category might not attract many entries or cannibalise on the other entries.

[Sebas]

Agree with Myron. An open category could result in
too little entries, reason being Singapore is a cmall country compared to other countries. We do not have a wide range of breeders who have enough space and time to dedicate fully to breeding bettas (exclude Straits etc). And the occurence of new, outstanding traits is understandably low. So if you put all these factors together, NBC will not have enough entries from a broad range of participants to make it worthwhile.

[Sebas]

Agree with Myron. An open category could result in
too little entries, reason being Singapore is a cmall country compared to other countries. We do not have a wide range of breeders who have enough space and time to dedicate fully to breeding bettas (exclude Straits etc). And the occurence of new, outstanding traits is understandably low. So if you put all these factors together, NBC will not have enough entries from a broad range of participants to make it worthwhile.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Kenneth,

If you will to ask me, I personally feel that BCS should have onli 1 NBC a year excluding the ABC affair which will takes turn to host it amongst the founding countries. As for the next ABC, guess there will be more concrete discussion later and the date may be changed if all the ABC representatives agree to it.

As for "if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in", it's as good as saying "if one cannot guarantee a win, don't bother to send in" That will be bad for any competition if it will to happen. Pls do not misread the word breakthru from the judges - it should be viewed as an objective or goal for all hobbyists to work their fishes to. And I must say it again, I'm all for a workable points system rather than consensus judging.



quote:Originally posted by kennho
Yes Sebas, that's one of the question I had in mind. What IS/ARE the objective/s of competition. Within a year, BCS held 2 competitions. And in less than 6 months, we will have another one in Malaysia and a big event in Singapore probably a few days after that.

When comes to a national level of competition, the judges or the criterias should suit to the level of appreciation at the particular representing club or organisation. Unless we are going to compete in a big play field where standards are set by a governing body, then participants must understand that's the rules of the game. When I relook at the entry form again, something crash into my mind " if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in".

[Chris Yew]

Hi Kenneth,

If you will to ask me, I personally feel that BCS should have onli 1 NBC a year excluding the ABC affair which will takes turn to host it amongst the founding countries. As for the next ABC, guess there will be more concrete discussion later and the date may be changed if all the ABC representatives agree to it.

As for "if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in", it's as good as saying "if one cannot guarantee a win, don't bother to send in" That will be bad for any competition if it will to happen. Pls do not misread the word breakthru from the judges - it should be viewed as an objective or goal for all hobbyists to work their fishes to. And I must say it again, I'm all for a workable points system rather than consensus judging.



quote:Originally posted by kennho
Yes Sebas, that's one of the question I had in mind. What IS/ARE the objective/s of competition. Within a year, BCS held 2 competitions. And in less than 6 months, we will have another one in Malaysia and a big event in Singapore probably a few days after that.

When comes to a national level of competition, the judges or the criterias should suit to the level of appreciation at the particular representing club or organisation. Unless we are going to compete in a big play field where standards are set by a governing body, then participants must understand that's the rules of the game. When I relook at the entry form again, something crash into my mind " if no breakthru, don't bother to sent in".

[Foo Hong]

Having been thru 2 competitions, I also agree with president that 1 NBC a year is just nice. Too tiring for 2 NBC, altho that was the ambitious plan. In btween we cld do other thgs like road shows[yes we move around like pasar malam stalls].

Maybe we can have a show of ventrals how many would like which month for the NBC. Initially the comm had had many discussions on frquency and dates, etc. One of the agreed actions was to host it either in June or DEC , or both. If we narrow down to 1 NBC a year, Both had its merits. June- sch hols so more hand available as parents are free. Once every 2 yrs, this cld coincide with aquarama where we cld either a. take a break ir lull year, or b. time our NBC 1 week before aquarama so that the same fishes can be submitted by owners for both, without much damage. Dec, like this lats one is a good time too, except that many go on holidays. The NBC shld also coincide with the ABC more or less.

[Foo Hong]

Having been thru 2 competitions, I also agree with president that 1 NBC a year is just nice. Too tiring for 2 NBC, altho that was the ambitious plan. In btween we cld do other thgs like road shows[yes we move around like pasar malam stalls].

Maybe we can have a show of ventrals how many would like which month for the NBC. Initially the comm had had many discussions on frquency and dates, etc. One of the agreed actions was to host it either in June or DEC , or both. If we narrow down to 1 NBC a year, Both had its merits. June- sch hols so more hand available as parents are free. Once every 2 yrs, this cld coincide with aquarama where we cld either a. take a break ir lull year, or b. time our NBC 1 week before aquarama so that the same fishes can be submitted by owners for both, without much damage. Dec, like this lats one is a good time too, except that many go on holidays. The NBC shld also coincide with the ABC more or less.

[Myron Tay]

In between NBCs, ABCs and Aquarama, we can arrange to send as a club entries to IBC, JBC, MBC shows.

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Having been thru 2 competitions, I also agree with president that 1 NBC a year is just nice. Too tiring for 2 NBC, altho that was the ambitious plan. In btween we cld do other thgs like road shows[yes we move around like pasar malam stalls].

Maybe we can have a show of ventrals how many would like which month for the NBC. Initially the comm had had many discussions on frquency and dates, etc. One of the agreed actions was to host it either in June or DEC , or both. If we narrow down to 1 NBC a year, Both had its merits. June- sch hols so more hand available as parents are free. Once every 2 yrs, this cld coincide with aquarama where we cld either a. take a break ir lull year, or b. time our NBC 1 week before aquarama so that the same fishes can be submitted by owners for both, without much damage. Dec, like this lats one is a good time too, except that many go on holidays. The NBC shld also coincide with the ABC more or less.

[Myron Tay]

In between NBCs, ABCs and Aquarama, we can arrange to send as a club entries to IBC, JBC, MBC shows.

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Having been thru 2 competitions, I also agree with president that 1 NBC a year is just nice. Too tiring for 2 NBC, altho that was the ambitious plan. In btween we cld do other thgs like road shows[yes we move around like pasar malam stalls].

Maybe we can have a show of ventrals how many would like which month for the NBC. Initially the comm had had many discussions on frquency and dates, etc. One of the agreed actions was to host it either in June or DEC , or both. If we narrow down to 1 NBC a year, Both had its merits. June- sch hols so more hand available as parents are free. Once every 2 yrs, this cld coincide with aquarama where we cld either a. take a break ir lull year, or b. time our NBC 1 week before aquarama so that the same fishes can be submitted by owners for both, without much damage. Dec, like this lats one is a good time too, except that many go on holidays. The NBC shld also coincide with the ABC more or less.

[kennho]

Hi Chris, don't worry I mis-interpreted the word. Strong phrase can be used to open discussion mah. Yes, once a year is good. But please, not rainy season. Well, I don't think we can ask the rain to go away, but held it during a monsoon season is not a good choice. Road shows at MRT/Bus interchange, town center can be considered ... kekeke aiyo where har ? There is one coming, outside Takashimaya, mid Jan.

The June holiday Foo Hong.

[kennho]

Hi Chris, don't worry I mis-interpreted the word. Strong phrase can be used to open discussion mah. Yes, once a year is good. But please, not rainy season. Well, I don't think we can ask the rain to go away, but held it during a monsoon season is not a good choice. Road shows at MRT/Bus interchange, town center can be considered ... kekeke aiyo where har ? There is one coming, outside Takashimaya, mid Jan.

The June holiday Foo Hong.