Genetics Of Opaque and Pastels???

[Samuel Phan]

Hi All,

I have read some of the web-sites explaining on colour genetics but little was mentioned about Opaque and Pastel.

Could any Lao Jiao care to share on these???

I understand that both the Opaque and Pastel are totally differnt in their gentics ... how?

Appreciate if some one is able to contribute on this ...

I have a current spawn of Opaques (hatched this morning) and would like to be at least be able to understand and predict their outcome.

Also ... in Chris Yew's web-site ... it was mentioned that a female with white wash when used in the spawning will probably give more clean fries as compared to usinb both pure Opaques for the spawning. Why is it so???

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

[Chris Yew]

White wash??... I think Red wash, right! ha!ha!

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com


quote:
Also ... in Chris Yew's web-site ... it was mentioned that a female with white wash when used in the spawning will probably give more clean fries as compared to usinb both pure Opaques for the spawning. Why is it so???

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Chris ...

Sorry sorry ... got lots of typo mistakes today ... one moment it was a "trip" to Bangkok becoming a "strip" in Bangkok ... and now this ...

My apologies ...

Btw ... how??? Chris??? off springs with red wash for perfectly white females??? I also read somewhere that mentioned that females are perfect white meaning that if they are white they will stay white throughout their life span ... whereas for males ... the red/blue wash tend to emerge when they get older.

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
White wash??... I think Red wash, right! ha!ha!

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com


quote:
Also ... in Chris Yew's web-site ... it was mentioned that a female with white wash when used in the spawning will probably give more clean fries as compared to usinb both pure Opaques for the spawning. Why is it so???

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan









Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Chris Yew]

Hi Sam,

Genetically Opaque and Pastel are the same, except that Pastel has less Opaque factor. For more details, you may wish to read my new Article page on "Difference between Opaque and Pastel" at;
http://www.guppiesonli.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

I do have an Opaque White Male and Female, both of them when they aged the red wash started to appear. Though females opaque tends to have less wash than males.

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com

[Jung]

Hats off, CY... You are really expert in obtaining and compiling info...

[Samuel Phan]

Thanks Chris,

Btw ... I will be coming out with my own web-site, may I request to have your genetic articles links posted on my site?

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Hi Sam,

Genetically Opaque and Pastel are the same, except that Pastel has less Opaque factor. For more details, you may wish to read my new Article page on "Difference between Opaque and Pastel" at;
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com/article6.html

I do have an Opaque White Male and Female, both of them when they aged the red wash started to appear. Though females opaque tends to have less wash than males.

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com





Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Chris Yew]

No problem Sam. Juz go ahead. Those are meant for sharing.

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com




quote:
Thanks Chris,

Btw ... I will be coming out with my own web-site, may I request to have your genetic articles links posted on my site?

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Hi Sam,

Genetically Opaque and Pastel are the same, except that Pastel has less Opaque factor. For more details, you may wish to read my new Article page on "Difference between Opaque and Pastel" at;
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com/article6.html

I do have an Opaque White Male and Female, both of them when they aged the red wash started to appear. Though females opaque tends to have less wash than males.

Chris Yew
http://bettasonli.netfirms.com





Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

From my own observations in white spawns, there are some whites which are matt opaque white[cool!] and some which are lighter in colour density resulting some sort of 'see thru'. the colour also looks a bit shinny. Such fishes appear pinkish as we could actually see its 'flesh colour'in a spawn. Sometimes these are termed pastel whites[ as agst pastel greens, blues, etc..].

I agree [ without any genetics knowledge at all] that opaques and pastel whites are similar, differing only in density of white layer.

[Samuel Phan]

After reading Chris Yew's article on Opaques and Pastels ... I have a better understanding of the genetic combination of the fishes now. Thanks Chris ... :)

I once read from the forum that attempts have been made to achieve a pink betta. May I ask what kind of genetics that we should be expecting?

Should it be ...

C - Cambodian to eliminate the black
Op - To give the white
R - To provide the red base

If that is the case ... then should attempts like Red Cambodians X Opaques be performed? Also ... should Si (Spread Irids) and Bl (Steel Blue) and Nr (Non-red) be bred out of the cross? If so ... how to? do we have to depend on luck to achieve that?

I am trying very hard to figure out the intricate theories of betta genetics ... would appreciate if someone can pin-point any problem with my assumptions above.

Thanks In Advance,
Samuel Phan

quote:
From my own observations in white spawns, there are some whites which are matt opaque white[cool!] and some which are lighter in colour density resulting some sort of 'see thru'. the colour also looks a bit shinny. Such fishes appear pinkish as we could actually see its 'flesh colour'in a spawn. Sometimes these are termed pastel whites[ as agst pastel greens, blues, etc..].

I agree [ without any genetics knowledge at all] that opaques and pastel whites are similar, differing only in density of white layer.




Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Dr Hsu]

I don't think true pink can be attained. The pinkish colors that I usually see are pinkish in body color only, like cambodians. Don't think pink can be attained on fins.
Betta colors are not like poster colors - cannot mix red with white to get pink! Doesn't work that way
Red required a dark background (requires melanin layer; dark body)whereas whites (opaques and pastels) are light bodied (lacking melanin layer; homozygous for cambodian genes). Both are diametrically opposed and since dark body is dominant, all fry will be red. (unless there is marble involved....this is the wild card that will screw theoretical results up!)

Regarding opaque and pastel - genetically the same in most situations, usually differing only in the degree of opaque factor on the body. The opaque gene manifests itself by causing uric acid crystals to be deposited on the body. IBC standards dictate that opaques need to have the opaque factor on the head, pastels do not. Other than this artificial classification, it seems that many pastels and opaques differ only in the amount of opaque factor on the body.

Personally like the whitness of Ah San's pastels - nice paper white - only hate the blue wash!


Regards,

Li Chieh

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Dr Hsu,

Thanks for the reply ... but I dun agree that a red fish will need melanin to carry the colour. In fact, I read from somewhere that mentioned that for Extended Reds ... it is actually because of the lack of black that causes it to be bright red ... aka the bright genes.

So for both the Opaques and Extended Reds ... they should both have light bodies. Dark body will only produce dark red bettas.

That from some of my findings from the web.

From you experience, what should the genetic combination be for a pink betta then??? just curious ... can share??? :)

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
I don't think true pink can be attained. The pinkish colors that I usually see are pinkish in body color only, like cambodians. Don't think pink can be attained on fins.
Betta colors are not like poster colors - cannot mix red with white to get pink! Doesn't work that way
Red required a dark background (requires melanin layer; dark body)whereas whites (opaques and pastels) are light bodied (lacking melanin layer; homozygous for cambodian genes). Both are diametrically opposed and since dark body is dominant, all fry will be red. (unless there is marble involved....this is the wild card that will screw theoretical results up!)

Regarding opaque and pastel - genetically the same in most situations, usually differing only in the degree of opaque factor on the body. The opaque gene manifests itself by causing uric acid crystals to be deposited on the body. IBC standards dictate that opaques need to have the opaque factor on the head, pastels do not. Other than this artificial classification, it seems that many pastels and opaques differ only in the amount of opaque factor on the body.

Personally like the whitness of Ah San's pastels - nice paper white - only hate the blue wash!


Regards,

Li Chieh


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Dr Hsu]

Ya...sorry lah. Middle of the night, off the top of my head so a bit blur. BAsically meant that red fish are dark bodied fishes, opaques are light bodied fish. Don't really mean the melanin layer...although there is some speculation that the red pigment is perhaps a form of melanin? Something like nr affecting red to give orange/yellow, some people believe that perhaps black and red and yellow are all along the same lines. Really need someone to section fish skin to study histologically and histochemically to determine - nice MSc/Phd project!
So I think basically cannot attain pink that way.
The only pink is perhaps from body color coming thru a translucent "white" body (ie pastel/opaque white). This can't be achieved on fins (only on ray portions).
So, don't think true pink (as I perceive what people perceive it to be) is not possible.

Regards,

Li Chieh

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Dr Hsu,

Thanks for your quick reply ... =)

But what you have answered is a bit difficult to digest because that will mean that whatever that I have gathered from the net might be over-thrown.

Anyway ... thanks =)

Btw ... Straits got some nice fish coming in today. Thinking of going down later over lunch time =)

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan


quote:
Ya...sorry lah. Middle of the night, off the top of my head so a bit blur. BAsically meant that red fish are dark bodied fishes, opaques are light bodied fish. Don't really mean the melanin layer...although there is some speculation that the red pigment is perhaps a form of melanin? Something like nr affecting red to give orange/yellow, some people believe that perhaps black and red and yellow are all along the same lines. Really need someone to section fish skin to study histologically and histochemically to determine - nice MSc/Phd project!
So I think basically cannot attain pink that way.
The only pink is perhaps from body color coming thru a translucent "white" body (ie pastel/opaque white). This can't be achieved on fins (only on ray portions).
So, don't think true pink (as I perceive what people perceive it to be) is not possible.

Regards,

Li Chieh


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Dr Hsu]

Hi Sam,

A lot of what's on the net is anecdotal, 3rd, 4th hand etc. Can't believe everything you read on the net (including my comments:)! ).
My comments are mainly based on what I have read/know about the subject, plus my gut feeling...just like most of what else is on the net. May be right..may be wrong, but likely somewhere in between :)
As far as I know, not a whole lot done on color genetics in fish, unlike birds where some of the color mutations are documented with feather pigment analysis, test crosses etc and even to the extent of documenting the linkage between alleles! To my knowledge (which is no way extensive on the subject), only Dr Lucas has done some of the test crosses in a scientific manner.



Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Dr Hsu,

Nice said ... :)

Seems like a lot of colour manipulation is still trial and error huh?

In that case ... maybe should try out more test spawns to see if I can arrive at interesting variations.

Btw ... going down to Straits later at 5 ... joining me?

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan

quote:
Hi Sam,

A lot of what's on the net is anecdotal, 3rd, 4th hand etc. Can't believe everything you read on the net (including my comments:)! ).
My comments are mainly based on what I have read/know about the subject, plus my gut feeling...just like most of what else is on the net. May be right..may be wrong, but likely somewhere in between :)
As far as I know, not a whole lot done on color genetics in fish, unlike birds where some of the color mutations are documented with feather pigment analysis, test crosses etc and even to the extent of documenting the linkage between alleles! To my knowledge (which is no way extensive on the subject), only Dr Lucas has done some of the test crosses in a scientific manner.



Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Dr Hsu]

Yeah, just do crosses and see what happens - maybe even keep some fishes back for F2 and F3 - just to see if anything interesting shows up later......

Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"

[Samuel Phan]

I should think so ... after seeing what Srtaits was able to do to perfect his Blue/White marble butterfly from a simple STM that I purchased few month back to some very nice close HM butterfly. I am really very tempted to achieve the same standard ... but of cos we lack their scale and dedications.

With Best Regards,

quote:
Yeah, just do crosses and see what happens - maybe even keep some fishes back for F2 and F3 - just to see if anything interesting shows up later......

Regards,

Li Chieh
"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Myron Tay]

Here are the genes involved in Dr Lucas' original opaque strain:

Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)

[Charles Lim]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here are the genes involved in Dr Lucas' original opaque strain:

Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)



Myron

Opaque genes (O) were used to create opaques? That's a bit too obvious, and thus says nothing new? [bt]

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Charles Lim

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

Here are the genes involved in Dr Lucas' original opaque strain:

Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)



Myron

Opaque genes (O) were used to create opaques? That's a bit too obvious, and thus says nothing new? [bt]
Yeah

But what about the rest of the genes? nr! Surprised?

[Charles Lim]

Not really. Something had to take away the red wash that is common in earlier generations of this color. What is more surprising is the steel blue. :D

[sylwester]

It didn't say anything about Er though..

Shouldn't it be
Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)
Extended-red (Er)

To get an even spread of the erythrophores?

[Svein]

should think that non red (nr) chromatophor should fix that??
Svein

[sylwester]

Im not sure. nr would replace red where a wild type usualy have red (lucas). Like my yellow fish is Er too or else it would only be yellow in certain areas. (see Er thread)

Yellow in only certain areas would make the white colour of the opaque differ in certain places where the places which usually has red on a wild type would be darker than the rest of the body. Just a thought though.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

It didn't say anything about Er though..

Shouldn't it be
Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)
Extended-red (Er)

To get an even spread of the erythrophores?
Sylwester

Just read this. No. No Er. Otherwise, there would be red wash.

[sylwester]

That would explain why opaque x yellow is a poor cross. Er is as difficiult to get rid of as Si in reds :)

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Morris Gabriel

spawn date: July 4, 2004

http://img74.exs.cx/img74/697/HM1.jpg


quote:Originally posted by Wayne

Nice!! Very very clean. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this halfmoon a pastel? Please enlighten me. :) Thanks.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Morris Gabriel

spawn date: July 4, 2004

http://img74.exs.cx/img74/697/HM1.jpg


quote:Originally posted by Wayne

Nice!! Very very clean. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this halfmoon a pastel? Please enlighten me. :) Thanks.

[Morris Gabriel]

why pastel an not opaque Wayne?

[Morris Gabriel]

why pastel an not opaque Wayne?

[Wayne]

[bt]Where is my brain when i post the previous message?

Was confuse by what some people call Opague which is just totally white with no or very very little opague factor. Overtime, my brain circuit has crossed that mislead me to think that white fish are opague.

Okay, reading back from the first message down, Opague are similar to pastel in terms of genetics but just that pastel has less opague factor. Hmm, so after all, your fish is Opague. Hmm....is that a sheen of green i see on the fish? [dr]

[Wayne]

[bt]Where is my brain when i post the previous message?

Was confuse by what some people call Opague which is just totally white with no or very very little opague factor. Overtime, my brain circuit has crossed that mislead me to think that white fish are opague.

Okay, reading back from the first message down, Opague are similar to pastel in terms of genetics but just that pastel has less opague factor. Hmm, so after all, your fish is Opague. Hmm....is that a sheen of green i see on the fish? [dr]

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Tay

quote:Originally posted by sylwester

It didn't say anything about Er though..

Shouldn't it be
Cambodian (c)
Steel Blue (Bl)
Spread Iridocytes (Si)
Opaque (O)
Non-red (nr)
Extended-red (Er)

To get an even spread of the erythrophores?
Sylwester

Just read this. No. No Er. Otherwise, there would be red wash.
Actually come to think of it, the spread of the white colour is done by way of the Spread Iridocytes gene which controls the spread of the steel blue gene. This should be maximised, since the opaque gene actually modifies the steel blue to the desired white colour. So the idea is to get as much of the steel blue over the fish as possible, and since the opaque gene modifies the steel blue to opaque, you get a betta with white all over.

The cambodian and non-red gene ensures that the black and red layers do not have any colour. Of course, in most bettas, the yellow layer already is colourless. Eliminating these colours and combining it with the features of the paragraph before this would give you only the desired opaque colour on the betta.

[Myron Tay]

My hypothesis is that pastels is an opaque with low colour intensity, much like the difference in intensity in reds.

[derrick kuah]

Myron ,
I think differently .Pastel is a kind of marbled gene(my thought)If you cross most others colour fishes to pastel , you will almost always get marbled.Anyway , pastel itsself is a marble(pheno), most will have the white underlayer with iress patches all over the body.good one will have, stink of irees layers over the white. And if you look hard enough , pastel don,t carry those chaulky white underlayer like opaque.But i also belive opaque and pastel genes coexist within each others.I have found out that opaque(good) only carrys red as washes ,no irees washes likes pastel do.
And by the way , opaque also comes in blue,turquios and steel(white).Those in blue and green will has a stinks opf coloured shin over white. the steel ones don,t caused of the white(which doesn,t show the colour).
thanks and regards derrick++