betta vz. tapwater

[Foo Hong]

yes the title is correct...ha!

Fed up of whatever chlorine n chloramine n what have you, I decided to guinea pig a few bettas using straight water from tap! One juvenile male 1 week out of the cumm tank, 1 young SD, 1 HM[poor colour], 1 female.

Lets see how they do. I do not use dechlorinator. I just wanna see how tuf they are [}:)]

[kennho]

Foo Hong, do let us know.

I am already using direct tap water without anti-chlorine. There has been quite an extended arguement among some of the pro goldfish keepers that storage water or aged water is "dead-water" (in hokkien).

Let u go thru the experiment and I would disseminate the experience to my group for studies.

[kennho]

Foo Hong, do let us know.

I am already using direct tap water without anti-chlorine. There has been quite an extended arguement among some of the pro goldfish keepers that storage water or aged water is "dead-water" (in hokkien).

Let u go thru the experiment and I would disseminate the experience to my group for studies.

[kennho]

Extracted from a pte club discussion where I am actively involved.

Dear kennho
Have you heard of dead water? Water that has been stored for more than 3 days without fish even though there is aeration is not fit for keeping fish. This I was told by my Japanese counterpart and yesterday confirmed with the shop at Clementi. There were cases people experienced the fish will develop whitish stuff all over the fish body when the fish is put in a tank of water aged more than a week. I am aware of this for a number of year but so far has yet to find a logical explanation. I have also checked with a number of people and some who had stayed in kampong told me this is dead water. Even their wells have to keep some fishes in it otherwise the water will not be fit for human consumption. Recently in an US discussion group this topic was also hotly debated. It seems that there are quite a number of people are aware of this but none can offer an explanation. All they can tell the dead water contain too much bacteria. Any idea of a scientific explanation for this.

---------------------

In the US or some countries and fish keeper that do water aging process thru aeration is argueable. Even in Singapore, many of the fish keepers saying age water is better. Actual fact, aged water introduces bacteria if the process of aging is not correct. Furthermore, a lot of foreign countries fishkeepers are using RO water or nitrificated water, as such, the permeable media removed the bacteria and algae. Storing such water is not a big deal.

Like what I mentioned, our local water is chlorinated. Ideally bacteria-free. Some will escape and boom in our tank. But the main problem is not the tap water. It's the container that stores the water. The container should be HDPE (high density poly-ethylene) and opaque to prevent light from entering. Those pails avaliable in our local market are just PVC which are not suitable. Fibreglass storage tank is also recommended. Most of the "discus farms" are using enclosed, darkened fibre-glass reservior. For us goldfish, direct tap with dechlorinator.

Light encourages free bacteria and algae spores to grow. So fast that we do not really see in our naked eyes. The most obvious is the slime that sticks onto the container surface. If I am correct, the slime is a kind of bacteria that bond together and form a slimy surface. Another one is the usual white flowing algae that we usually see in our glass tank. Need more searching to confirm.

Those white precipitates that form at the bottom of the tanks are grown up but dead bacteria or parasites and precipitation of the anti-chlorine and other solids.

I also use a few bettas in the storage water. Betta is not a good choice that those small tetras which eat small micro plants (algaes and others), thus reducing the possibility of algae growth. However, they remove some of the minerals and also increase the N level from their wastes. So a few small fish like hardy tetra will be recommended. Best - guppies, mollies which are superb algae eater.

That's what I think. There was a research done in storing tap water in an bottle and was found undrinkable after a period of time. The water looks the same, but the bacteria multiplied to a horrible level. However, that do not explain the use of a small fish in the aging process. Might required a field doctor to work on such experiment.

------------

[kennho]

Extracted from a pte club discussion where I am actively involved.

Dear kennho
Have you heard of dead water? Water that has been stored for more than 3 days without fish even though there is aeration is not fit for keeping fish. This I was told by my Japanese counterpart and yesterday confirmed with the shop at Clementi. There were cases people experienced the fish will develop whitish stuff all over the fish body when the fish is put in a tank of water aged more than a week. I am aware of this for a number of year but so far has yet to find a logical explanation. I have also checked with a number of people and some who had stayed in kampong told me this is dead water. Even their wells have to keep some fishes in it otherwise the water will not be fit for human consumption. Recently in an US discussion group this topic was also hotly debated. It seems that there are quite a number of people are aware of this but none can offer an explanation. All they can tell the dead water contain too much bacteria. Any idea of a scientific explanation for this.

---------------------

In the US or some countries and fish keeper that do water aging process thru aeration is argueable. Even in Singapore, many of the fish keepers saying age water is better. Actual fact, aged water introduces bacteria if the process of aging is not correct. Furthermore, a lot of foreign countries fishkeepers are using RO water or nitrificated water, as such, the permeable media removed the bacteria and algae. Storing such water is not a big deal.

Like what I mentioned, our local water is chlorinated. Ideally bacteria-free. Some will escape and boom in our tank. But the main problem is not the tap water. It's the container that stores the water. The container should be HDPE (high density poly-ethylene) and opaque to prevent light from entering. Those pails avaliable in our local market are just PVC which are not suitable. Fibreglass storage tank is also recommended. Most of the "discus farms" are using enclosed, darkened fibre-glass reservior. For us goldfish, direct tap with dechlorinator.

Light encourages free bacteria and algae spores to grow. So fast that we do not really see in our naked eyes. The most obvious is the slime that sticks onto the container surface. If I am correct, the slime is a kind of bacteria that bond together and form a slimy surface. Another one is the usual white flowing algae that we usually see in our glass tank. Need more searching to confirm.

Those white precipitates that form at the bottom of the tanks are grown up but dead bacteria or parasites and precipitation of the anti-chlorine and other solids.

I also use a few bettas in the storage water. Betta is not a good choice that those small tetras which eat small micro plants (algaes and others), thus reducing the possibility of algae growth. However, they remove some of the minerals and also increase the N level from their wastes. So a few small fish like hardy tetra will be recommended. Best - guppies, mollies which are superb algae eater.

That's what I think. There was a research done in storing tap water in an bottle and was found undrinkable after a period of time. The water looks the same, but the bacteria multiplied to a horrible level. However, that do not explain the use of a small fish in the aging process. Might required a field doctor to work on such experiment.

------------

[Foo Hong]

My experiment was prompted bcos I remembered Dr Fred said tht chloramine coses gill inflammation. I did had a few , even after i added conditioner. So out of fustration, I x on afew fishes, some at my dads place n some at home.

They are still kicking after 5 days, no diff from those where dechlo was used...strangely !

I also suspect the addition of thgs like aloevera extract coses slime and hence bacteria build up. The conditioner i am using is non-slime type. I suspect whiole certaion additives removes chlorine/chlroamine, the substances itself post an additional problem to the fish

wait further to confirm.

[Foo Hong]

My experiment was prompted bcos I remembered Dr Fred said tht chloramine coses gill inflammation. I did had a few , even after i added conditioner. So out of fustration, I x on afew fishes, some at my dads place n some at home.

They are still kicking after 5 days, no diff from those where dechlo was used...strangely !

I also suspect the addition of thgs like aloevera extract coses slime and hence bacteria build up. The conditioner i am using is non-slime type. I suspect whiole certaion additives removes chlorine/chlroamine, the substances itself post an additional problem to the fish

wait further to confirm.

[Foo Hong]

day 6....still flaring. Increase sample size to 2 additional fishes.

Poker stake is going up !

[Foo Hong]

day 6....still flaring. Increase sample size to 2 additional fishes.

Poker stake is going up !

[ben fox wong]

me & my colleague kept some bettas in the office since early August this year. fresh tap water is used. the fish are still surviving. in fact a pair had just spawned 2 weeks ago - without styrofoam cups, ketapang leaves or good food conditioning. we also dont use any medicine or conditioners for these in the office. being begginers our fish are lower-end, so we dare to try. another colleague of mine had been using fresh tap water at home for close to 4 years, his CTs lived on average between 1 to 2 years, which is the norm. bettas are supposed to be strong fish, able to survive in dirty "long-kang" conditions. if u look at our rivers, there are many abandoned fish which have multiplied. these abandoned fish had been spawned & bred in man-made clean environment, & survived the river water. before joining the river, water flows thru the drains with alot of trash, which should be more harmful than the cholorine/choloromine we have in our tap water. let me try more bettas with fresh tap water in the office.

[ben fox wong]

me & my colleague kept some bettas in the office since early August this year. fresh tap water is used. the fish are still surviving. in fact a pair had just spawned 2 weeks ago - without styrofoam cups, ketapang leaves or good food conditioning. we also dont use any medicine or conditioners for these in the office. being begginers our fish are lower-end, so we dare to try. another colleague of mine had been using fresh tap water at home for close to 4 years, his CTs lived on average between 1 to 2 years, which is the norm. bettas are supposed to be strong fish, able to survive in dirty "long-kang" conditions. if u look at our rivers, there are many abandoned fish which have multiplied. these abandoned fish had been spawned & bred in man-made clean environment, & survived the river water. before joining the river, water flows thru the drains with alot of trash, which should be more harmful than the cholorine/choloromine we have in our tap water. let me try more bettas with fresh tap water in the office.

[Foo Hong]

Hi Ben[or is it fox?ha]
Yr arguements makes a lot of sense. I have increased my sample to a tankful of yellow females......daily tap water change.....tubifex[yes dirty]....semi-sun exposure.

Maybe one of us shkld also test with 'newater' [:I]

[Foo Hong]

Hi Ben[or is it fox?ha]
Yr arguements makes a lot of sense. I have increased my sample to a tankful of yellow females......daily tap water change.....tubifex[yes dirty]....semi-sun exposure.

Maybe one of us shkld also test with 'newater' [:I]

[kennho]

newater parameter is out in PUB website. Higher in free chlorine and practically low mineral water not suitable in long run. very clean water, better than many recycle centers in USA.

Ben, I know many will use the longkang as example for fish in "dirty water". But the fact is that these water surface are large and flow to refresh the oxygen level in the water is quite fast. Also, due to the amount of water plants in the water, the high level of N is absorbed. In fact, other than harmful bacteria, the longkang water is actually suitable for all types of fish. Only few case that local water killed practically all fishes in the river were at the Ulu Panda canal where several 100s of fishes died overnight some years ago.

[kennho]

newater parameter is out in PUB website. Higher in free chlorine and practically low mineral water not suitable in long run. very clean water, better than many recycle centers in USA.

Ben, I know many will use the longkang as example for fish in "dirty water". But the fact is that these water surface are large and flow to refresh the oxygen level in the water is quite fast. Also, due to the amount of water plants in the water, the high level of N is absorbed. In fact, other than harmful bacteria, the longkang water is actually suitable for all types of fish. Only few case that local water killed practically all fishes in the river were at the Ulu Panda canal where several 100s of fishes died overnight some years ago.

[Foo Hong]

I wasnt following closely, id PUB gonna mix newater into existing tapwater? what ratio?

[Foo Hong]

I wasnt following closely, id PUB gonna mix newater into existing tapwater? what ratio?

[kennho]

dunno yet foo hong. All I know how is that some of my club members are working out the cost of sustaining the hobby at home in the next couple of years vs increasing farm rental fee (for larger fish lah). However, based on PUB website, the dilution of newater into the reservior should be some 2 million gallon a day for indirect potable use by early next year. But no matter how, the minerals are added at the pump stations. So should not affect in term of our tap water quality under the WHO guidelines. But the cost of producing newater will surely be pass down to the last user (we lah!).

before 1997 80.3cts 1998 104.4cts up 30% 1999 $1.28 up 23% 2000 $1.52 up 19% 2001 no change Guess what's next for 2002 ? Anyway, not a topic here. Who cares about cost when it comes to nice beautiful fish. :)

[kennho]

dunno yet foo hong. All I know how is that some of my club members are working out the cost of sustaining the hobby at home in the next couple of years vs increasing farm rental fee (for larger fish lah). However, based on PUB website, the dilution of newater into the reservior should be some 2 million gallon a day for indirect potable use by early next year. But no matter how, the minerals are added at the pump stations. So should not affect in term of our tap water quality under the WHO guidelines. But the cost of producing newater will surely be pass down to the last user (we lah!).

before 1997 80.3cts 1998 104.4cts up 30% 1999 $1.28 up 23% 2000 $1.52 up 19% 2001 no change Guess what's next for 2002 ? Anyway, not a topic here. Who cares about cost when it comes to nice beautiful fish. :)

[Foo Hong]

Oh yes if you want to keep fish dont stinge on water. :D You will notice that if you double yr water changing frequency, yr water bill does not go up much. But if yr HM dies, thats an unrecoverable loss [B)]

[Foo Hong]

Oh yes if you want to keep fish dont stinge on water. :D You will notice that if you double yr water changing frequency, yr water bill does not go up much. But if yr HM dies, thats an unrecoverable loss [B)]

[Foo Hong]

Oh BTW, tapwater experiment still looking a-ok :) No casualties at all.

And maybe its gud to take stock again of what conditioner u use and their known effects.

For those still on conditioner, I have Seachem, Wardley. Both none slimy types.

[Foo Hong]

Oh BTW, tapwater experiment still looking a-ok :) No casualties at all.

And maybe its gud to take stock again of what conditioner u use and their known effects.

For those still on conditioner, I have Seachem, Wardley. Both none slimy types.

[ben fox wong]

Foo Hong. Ben or Fox is fine. i was only Ben until a few months ago i was abducted by aliens who experimented on me an unknown virus. Victims display unique Betta Deficiency Syndroms.

Kenn. i agree that the river has waterflow. but wouldnt the water still flow thru the trap of trash at the mouth of the monsoon drains before joining the river. Kallang River at low tide, i can see the silt at the bottom, no water plants. of if there are any inside the riverwall cracks, would'nt have much to neutralize the waste from the fish. even then, i doubt if the water plants can neutralize the toxic given out from the trash. some of the drains adjoining, are choked with dead leaves n trash that the water has turned black. but still fish swim in abundance. in any case, we are not finding out how fish spawn & bred in clean environment can survive when abandoned in canals/rivers. lets find out more abt aging water vs tap water.

[ben fox wong]

Foo Hong. Ben or Fox is fine. i was only Ben until a few months ago i was abducted by aliens who experimented on me an unknown virus. Victims display unique Betta Deficiency Syndroms.

Kenn. i agree that the river has waterflow. but wouldnt the water still flow thru the trap of trash at the mouth of the monsoon drains before joining the river. Kallang River at low tide, i can see the silt at the bottom, no water plants. of if there are any inside the riverwall cracks, would'nt have much to neutralize the waste from the fish. even then, i doubt if the water plants can neutralize the toxic given out from the trash. some of the drains adjoining, are choked with dead leaves n trash that the water has turned black. but still fish swim in abundance. in any case, we are not finding out how fish spawn & bred in clean environment can survive when abandoned in canals/rivers. lets find out more abt aging water vs tap water.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi, I just want to clarify one thing. High rise offices and housing units (HDB or Condo etc) have roof top water storage tanks and that makes their tap water similar to aged water. Direct "tap water" should be water coming out from the taps of Low-rise and landed properties.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi, I just want to clarify one thing. High rise offices and housing units (HDB or Condo etc) have roof top water storage tanks and that makes their tap water similar to aged water. Direct "tap water" should be water coming out from the taps of Low-rise and landed properties.

[kennho]

Ben the alienated betta syndrom carrier, let's not go too detail into our singapore river pollution. A search in Yahoo will tell you that Singapore pollution control is very well recognised in the world since the late 70s. Even until today, ENV has a delicated department that monitoring on our water system and a very strict law on industries that discharge waste into the water system. :)

I agree with Steven that high rise HDB does has some effect on "aging" of water. In fact, my water is pretty low in chlorine but high in pH (7.6~8.0) and near 0 dgH. Save me a lot of job in adjusting the pH but one hell of work to increase the gH. That's something I need to point out - several years back, tap water out from my pipe is about pH 6.9, graually increased to present level. If I recalled correctly, PUB site was stating pH range from 6.8 to 8.0 years back. Now is 7.0 to 9.0.

Now, the question are what's the effect on aging the water with our present acidity level direct from tap ? What's the effect that affect the various types of betta or any other type of fish ?

One thing for sure, higher pH has some effect on black coloration (not melano) as I keep a lot of black fishes (not betta). more to ponder.

[kennho]

Ben the alienated betta syndrom carrier, let's not go too detail into our singapore river pollution. A search in Yahoo will tell you that Singapore pollution control is very well recognised in the world since the late 70s. Even until today, ENV has a delicated department that monitoring on our water system and a very strict law on industries that discharge waste into the water system. :)

I agree with Steven that high rise HDB does has some effect on "aging" of water. In fact, my water is pretty low in chlorine but high in pH (7.6~8.0) and near 0 dgH. Save me a lot of job in adjusting the pH but one hell of work to increase the gH. That's something I need to point out - several years back, tap water out from my pipe is about pH 6.9, graually increased to present level. If I recalled correctly, PUB site was stating pH range from 6.8 to 8.0 years back. Now is 7.0 to 9.0.

Now, the question are what's the effect on aging the water with our present acidity level direct from tap ? What's the effect that affect the various types of betta or any other type of fish ?

One thing for sure, higher pH has some effect on black coloration (not melano) as I keep a lot of black fishes (not betta). more to ponder.

[Foo Hong]

Yeah...time to locate my digital Ph meter and do a test !

[Foo Hong]

Yeah...time to locate my digital Ph meter and do a test !

[ben fox wong]

Hi Steven, my office is only 3 storeys & there are no water storage tanks at the roof level. the tap water is straight from the PUB mains. but since we age water at 24 hours, my bettas are only affected by 24 hours, thereafter is like aged water. if the cholorinated tap water is safe for human consumption, it shouldnt be that detrimental to a fish. hey i am not using water from swimming pools. i am not advocating using tap water, just doing an experiment. i still feel that there is no harm to follow conventional wisdom & am still using aged water for my higher end bettas. those in the office i am prepared to let go.

[ben fox wong]

Hi Steven, my office is only 3 storeys & there are no water storage tanks at the roof level. the tap water is straight from the PUB mains. but since we age water at 24 hours, my bettas are only affected by 24 hours, thereafter is like aged water. if the cholorinated tap water is safe for human consumption, it shouldnt be that detrimental to a fish. hey i am not using water from swimming pools. i am not advocating using tap water, just doing an experiment. i still feel that there is no harm to follow conventional wisdom & am still using aged water for my higher end bettas. those in the office i am prepared to let go.

[kennho]

Ben, did you go to the recent Koi show ? There are several extremely expensive fish died in a few hours after exposed to tap water. Most of them died of gill burn. A little chlorine can be useful but just a little more will kill fishes. Under extreme condition of chlorine concentration, the fins will close after changing fresh tap water. It's a sign to watch.

It's good to monitor the fresh tap water and know when the storage tank on top of HDB pump fresh water from the water work. Anyway, to my understanding, people living in the western singapore are more expose to Chloramine.

[kennho]

Ben, did you go to the recent Koi show ? There are several extremely expensive fish died in a few hours after exposed to tap water. Most of them died of gill burn. A little chlorine can be useful but just a little more will kill fishes. Under extreme condition of chlorine concentration, the fins will close after changing fresh tap water. It's a sign to watch.

It's good to monitor the fresh tap water and know when the storage tank on top of HDB pump fresh water from the water work. Anyway, to my understanding, people living in the western singapore are more expose to Chloramine.

[Steven Cheng]

Ben, I brought up the point so that people doing experiment will bear the differences in mind. Not all tap waters are the same.
High rise buildings have at least two water tanks. One on the ground floor and the other on the roof. Normally, PUB main water will fill up the ground floor tank whenever the floating valve is lowered. The roof top tank usually has a level trigger switch that is set around the 30% mark, and it will trigger the ground floor pump to start pumping. So, under normal conditions, high rise tap water is at least partially aged.
I have been using discharge water from my home distiller for my bettas with no problem. Recently, some of my SDs developed chipping at the end of the caudal webs which made them look like CTs. These happened soon after water change. However, my plakats and Imbellis were O.K. I think the tap water experiment should not be aiming at whether the fish survive, but rather whether it affects the finnage and general health of the fish. Is there anyone generous enough to use his adult SD/HMs with perfect finnage to test whether tap water damages the finnage?

[Steven Cheng]

Ben, I brought up the point so that people doing experiment will bear the differences in mind. Not all tap waters are the same.
High rise buildings have at least two water tanks. One on the ground floor and the other on the roof. Normally, PUB main water will fill up the ground floor tank whenever the floating valve is lowered. The roof top tank usually has a level trigger switch that is set around the 30% mark, and it will trigger the ground floor pump to start pumping. So, under normal conditions, high rise tap water is at least partially aged.
I have been using discharge water from my home distiller for my bettas with no problem. Recently, some of my SDs developed chipping at the end of the caudal webs which made them look like CTs. These happened soon after water change. However, my plakats and Imbellis were O.K. I think the tap water experiment should not be aiming at whether the fish survive, but rather whether it affects the finnage and general health of the fish. Is there anyone generous enough to use his adult SD/HMs with perfect finnage to test whether tap water damages the finnage?

[Foo Hong]

Yes the SD/HM guinea pigs are under going the torture. Agree its not only survival we are int in. sometimes I also notice the chippings and 'rotting', which I am not sure due to what.

When you said distiller what in fact is it, is it the water purifier?

[Foo Hong]

Yes the SD/HM guinea pigs are under going the torture. Agree its not only survival we are int in. sometimes I also notice the chippings and 'rotting', which I am not sure due to what.

When you said distiller what in fact is it, is it the water purifier?

[Steven Cheng]

I use a laboratory grade water distiller at home to make pure drinking water for my family. It uses water as a coolant to condense the steam from the boiler into pure drinking water. The ratio of discharge water to distilled water is about 15 to 1, so I get a lot of "harder" water from the discharge water and I collect and cool it before using for my fish. However, maybe because of re-piping and replacement of old pipes in my condo units that I start to find chipped fins in my SDs but not Plakats and Imbellis.

[Steven Cheng]

I use a laboratory grade water distiller at home to make pure drinking water for my family. It uses water as a coolant to condense the steam from the boiler into pure drinking water. The ratio of discharge water to distilled water is about 15 to 1, so I get a lot of "harder" water from the discharge water and I collect and cool it before using for my fish. However, maybe because of re-piping and replacement of old pipes in my condo units that I start to find chipped fins in my SDs but not Plakats and Imbellis.

[Foo Hong]

actually, certain conditioners says 'remove heavy metals'. I guess these were meant for such purpose as pipes changing. It is probably somethg u need? I alyways try to purpose conditioners with 3 requirements min.
remove chlorine, chlroamine, heavy metals.

I ve thot of using distillers and filters but after weighing pros/cons.....its too much a hassle

[Foo Hong]

actually, certain conditioners says 'remove heavy metals'. I guess these were meant for such purpose as pipes changing. It is probably somethg u need? I alyways try to purpose conditioners with 3 requirements min.
remove chlorine, chlroamine, heavy metals.

I ve thot of using distillers and filters but after weighing pros/cons.....its too much a hassle

[Steven Cheng]

(quote)I ve thot of using distillers and filters but after weighing pros/cons.....its too much a hassle(/quote)
Foo Hong, are you refering to using them for your fish or your family? There is a model of distiller that is fully automatic and you just need to change the activated carbon filter once every one to two months.(comparing this with almost daily water change for your bettas, it's not much of a hassle). But betta lovers behave very differently. They would do anything for their bettas (e.g. give vitamins, wash tubifex many, many times, buy live daphnia every two days, and of course changing water etc....), and don't find those things a hassle at all, but when it comes to almost anything else, it is a hassle. I don't know about others but I find it troublesome to brush my teeth every day. Ha.. Ha....BTW distilled water is not good for keeping bettas.

[Steven Cheng]

(quote)I ve thot of using distillers and filters but after weighing pros/cons.....its too much a hassle(/quote)
Foo Hong, are you refering to using them for your fish or your family? There is a model of distiller that is fully automatic and you just need to change the activated carbon filter once every one to two months.(comparing this with almost daily water change for your bettas, it's not much of a hassle). But betta lovers behave very differently. They would do anything for their bettas (e.g. give vitamins, wash tubifex many, many times, buy live daphnia every two days, and of course changing water etc....), and don't find those things a hassle at all, but when it comes to almost anything else, it is a hassle. I don't know about others but I find it troublesome to brush my teeth every day. Ha.. Ha....BTW distilled water is not good for keeping bettas.

[Foo Hong]

I know distilled water is bad for bettas. maybe one day will drop by to see yr distiller.

[Foo Hong]

I know distilled water is bad for bettas. maybe one day will drop by to see yr distiller.

[Steven Cheng]

I forgot to tell you that mine is the most troublesome type (to save money) that needs descaling, controlled water inflow and uses $50/- of electricity and water per month for my family of four. Come to think of it, I should have bought the then $2300/- model that I told you about (it was selling at 1900/- when my brother bought it one and a half years ago). My unit plus self added accessaries etc costed $800/- five years back. Are we diverting too far from the topic?
I know you know that distilled water is bad for bettas. What I am hinting is that in order to take good care of your beloved bettas, you must first maintain your good health. I believe in using distilled water (plus vitamins etc) as it all adds up to big savings in my medical bills. You are most welcome if you want to view my distiller as I do not have presentable bettas yet for you to see at the moment, but I am sure by participating in BCS and learning from the senior members (young n old alike), I would develop something somehow. Skygazer bettas instead of telescopic eye! By the way, I am currently experimenting on a self designed direct tap water drip system. Just started not long ago and have not completed the whole system yet. Results so far show that I can save on water changing buy quality of fish is still so so only. Will try to complete the system before end of November.

[Steven Cheng]

I forgot to tell you that mine is the most troublesome type (to save money) that needs descaling, controlled water inflow and uses $50/- of electricity and water per month for my family of four. Come to think of it, I should have bought the then $2300/- model that I told you about (it was selling at 1900/- when my brother bought it one and a half years ago). My unit plus self added accessaries etc costed $800/- five years back. Are we diverting too far from the topic?
I know you know that distilled water is bad for bettas. What I am hinting is that in order to take good care of your beloved bettas, you must first maintain your good health. I believe in using distilled water (plus vitamins etc) as it all adds up to big savings in my medical bills. You are most welcome if you want to view my distiller as I do not have presentable bettas yet for you to see at the moment, but I am sure by participating in BCS and learning from the senior members (young n old alike), I would develop something somehow. Skygazer bettas instead of telescopic eye! By the way, I am currently experimenting on a self designed direct tap water drip system. Just started not long ago and have not completed the whole system yet. Results so far show that I can save on water changing buy quality of fish is still so so only. Will try to complete the system before end of November.

[kennho]

Steven, tell us more about this drip system. I read somewhere about this system but have no idea what's all about. A general idea will do.

[kennho]

Steven, tell us more about this drip system. I read somewhere about this system but have no idea what's all about. A general idea will do.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi Kennho, I came up with the idea after seeing the BC Betta's Betta Barrack System. I have seen agriculture farms using drip irrigation system in Malaysia before, and I started sourcing for the drip heads that control the water dripping rate. Basically, I contruct a piping system direct from water tap with air tubing and install drip heads over my betta plastic containers with holes for overflow and discharge tubes. I adjust the drip rate at about 20 to 30% of the containers' water volume. So far, no fin damage etc and I siphon out the dirt and such about once a week, saving a lot of time on water changing. I am still working on it but basically the idea is as presented. Any suggestions or comments?

[Steven Cheng]

Hi Kennho, I came up with the idea after seeing the BC Betta's Betta Barrack System. I have seen agriculture farms using drip irrigation system in Malaysia before, and I started sourcing for the drip heads that control the water dripping rate. Basically, I contruct a piping system direct from water tap with air tubing and install drip heads over my betta plastic containers with holes for overflow and discharge tubes. I adjust the drip rate at about 20 to 30% of the containers' water volume. So far, no fin damage etc and I siphon out the dirt and such about once a week, saving a lot of time on water changing. I am still working on it but basically the idea is as presented. Any suggestions or comments?

[Phil]

Hi Guys,
Just a suggestion. Why not invest in a powerhead in your water storage area. Using an overhead filter set-up, will allow you to circulate and oxygenate the water, hence no dead water.

[Phil]

Hi Guys,
Just a suggestion. Why not invest in a powerhead in your water storage area. Using an overhead filter set-up, will allow you to circulate and oxygenate the water, hence no dead water.

[Dr Hsu]

Steven,

I think you have a good idea going. There are only 2 possible downsides that I can see to the system:

1) Costs a little as you are using an open tap system, and not very environmentally friendly. If we have a double water system like in some countries (ie recycled water for flushing loos etc) then it would be great.

2) I can't see how to dechlorinate/dechloramine the water unless it goes through some ion exchange system first. Of course this whole thing is being debated now so it would be really good to see how the fish handle untreated tap water - it will once and for all end the discussion on whether to add conditioners and tell us whether it is actually the chloramine/chlorine etc that causes fin problems or general water quality!

Would be interested in seeing your system when you've got it all set up. > a potential member's gathering???:D

[Dr Hsu]

Steven,

I think you have a good idea going. There are only 2 possible downsides that I can see to the system:

1) Costs a little as you are using an open tap system, and not very environmentally friendly. If we have a double water system like in some countries (ie recycled water for flushing loos etc) then it would be great.

2) I can't see how to dechlorinate/dechloramine the water unless it goes through some ion exchange system first. Of course this whole thing is being debated now so it would be really good to see how the fish handle untreated tap water - it will once and for all end the discussion on whether to add conditioners and tell us whether it is actually the chloramine/chlorine etc that causes fin problems or general water quality!

Would be interested in seeing your system when you've got it all set up. > a potential member's gathering???:D

[Foo Hong]

An airstone will do lah save on elec bill !

[Foo Hong]

An airstone will do lah save on elec bill !

[kennho]

Hi Steven, sorry a bit busy so reply late. Thanks Dr Hsu to ask the same question I have in mind. Actually I used a drip to replace water for my discus fries tank when I change water and I am doing that for betta fries as well. I heard that a betta breeder actually uses a drip or whatever to perform such auto refresh of water.

Like the topic said, Betta vz Tap water, this system only provide direct water change without dechlorinating. Do you have a resin based filtration attach to the special designed tap ?

Another question, how is your water quality compare to the usual method of keeping ? I ask this becos you mentioned that you still need to siphon the waste out, which means that potential ammonia build up.

No, I am not questioning your idea, but to understand what are the benefits from this investment.

///
Foo Hong, airstone also need an electrical air pump. Use a guppy will do.

[kennho]

Hi Steven, sorry a bit busy so reply late. Thanks Dr Hsu to ask the same question I have in mind. Actually I used a drip to replace water for my discus fries tank when I change water and I am doing that for betta fries as well. I heard that a betta breeder actually uses a drip or whatever to perform such auto refresh of water.

Like the topic said, Betta vz Tap water, this system only provide direct water change without dechlorinating. Do you have a resin based filtration attach to the special designed tap ?

Another question, how is your water quality compare to the usual method of keeping ? I ask this becos you mentioned that you still need to siphon the waste out, which means that potential ammonia build up.

No, I am not questioning your idea, but to understand what are the benefits from this investment.

///
Foo Hong, airstone also need an electrical air pump. Use a guppy will do.

[Steven Cheng]

Thanks for the response, guys. My so-called system is very crude. Nothing added. Just straight tap (direct PUB) water in, and out by overflowing, so there are still dirt/residue sitting at the bottom of the plastic jar. I also do not invest in water quality testing kits etc. My main concern is time and labour saving when designing and using the system. I have raised and sold 2.5 batches of fry using the incomplete system (drainage pipes missing at the moment). All items used are available from hardware stores and LFS. Drip heads are 40 cents each and plastic container with lids 12 cents each etc. As to the question of recycling the discharge water, I do not mind if my downstairs neighbour is willing to hold them in a bucket. I am packing 90 fish per 3 feet length of Ikea stand using only two shelves (HDB living for bettas), top level for spawning tanks at the moment. Dr. Hsu, I struggled hard to gain permission (from you know who) to go into betta rearing at home, but was forced to promise "No Home Visit!", thus can only sell fish through pictures on my website. However, I am willing to share my garage system with BCS members who are interested and I am willing to bring the simple parts to demonstrate the system. I also have another possible solution for people using glass tanks or plastic tanks who are unwilling/unable to drill holes in them.
Kenneth, the investment is small per fish. They grow fast. I save time. That is very good returns on investment.

[Steven Cheng]

Thanks for the response, guys. My so-called system is very crude. Nothing added. Just straight tap (direct PUB) water in, and out by overflowing, so there are still dirt/residue sitting at the bottom of the plastic jar. I also do not invest in water quality testing kits etc. My main concern is time and labour saving when designing and using the system. I have raised and sold 2.5 batches of fry using the incomplete system (drainage pipes missing at the moment). All items used are available from hardware stores and LFS. Drip heads are 40 cents each and plastic container with lids 12 cents each etc. As to the question of recycling the discharge water, I do not mind if my downstairs neighbour is willing to hold them in a bucket. I am packing 90 fish per 3 feet length of Ikea stand using only two shelves (HDB living for bettas), top level for spawning tanks at the moment. Dr. Hsu, I struggled hard to gain permission (from you know who) to go into betta rearing at home, but was forced to promise "No Home Visit!", thus can only sell fish through pictures on my website. However, I am willing to share my garage system with BCS members who are interested and I am willing to bring the simple parts to demonstrate the system. I also have another possible solution for people using glass tanks or plastic tanks who are unwilling/unable to drill holes in them.
Kenneth, the investment is small per fish. They grow fast. I save time. That is very good returns on investment.

[kennho]

Getting a patent for that ? :)

Take a few pics and show us leh since you-know-who will not allow us to visit. A pic tells a 1000 betta bubbles.

Back to tapwater then ...

[kennho]

Getting a patent for that ? :)

Take a few pics and show us leh since you-know-who will not allow us to visit. A pic tells a 1000 betta bubbles.

Back to tapwater then ...

[Foo Hong]

Think aq drip is a drip so dirts stills stays at the tank bottom but dissolved waste are diluted?

[Foo Hong]

Think aq drip is a drip so dirts stills stays at the tank bottom but dissolved waste are diluted?

[kennho]

Here is one important question for those who use direct tap water :

Do you change fries water with direct tap water ?
Do you notice a lot more defective fries than using stored/aged water ?

[kennho]

Here is one important question for those who use direct tap water :

Do you change fries water with direct tap water ?
Do you notice a lot more defective fries than using stored/aged water ?

[Steven Cheng]

Yes, the poop stays at the bottom..thats why I have to siphon it out from time to time (1week to 10days), but the water stays clean enough and that is what is important for the fish. BTW, I had done an experiment, before starting to construct the drip system, with culls for 1.5 to 2 months without any siphoning and cleaning, and no problem with the direct tap water also. However, since the fish in the system now are not culls anymore, I have to play safe a bit (Kiasu!)

Kenneth, How come I never think of taking pictures. But you guys must promise not to use the pics as evidence against me for SPCA. As to getting a patent, I would rather spend the time and money on my fish. Ha.. Ha..

The key to the system is the adjustment of the water drip rate which is adjustable depending on how tall the HDB flats are etc. Will post the pictures when I have your written promise on the SPCA thing (Just joking).

[Steven Cheng]

Yes, the poop stays at the bottom..thats why I have to siphon it out from time to time (1week to 10days), but the water stays clean enough and that is what is important for the fish. BTW, I had done an experiment, before starting to construct the drip system, with culls for 1.5 to 2 months without any siphoning and cleaning, and no problem with the direct tap water also. However, since the fish in the system now are not culls anymore, I have to play safe a bit (Kiasu!)

Kenneth, How come I never think of taking pictures. But you guys must promise not to use the pics as evidence against me for SPCA. As to getting a patent, I would rather spend the time and money on my fish. Ha.. Ha..

The key to the system is the adjustment of the water drip rate which is adjustable depending on how tall the HDB flats are etc. Will post the pictures when I have your written promise on the SPCA thing (Just joking).

[Steven Cheng]

Can't give an answer to that for me, as I put fish in the direct tap water system only when they are big enough to eat tubifex or about 1.5 cm onwards.

Dare not risk at fry stage (before tubifex) and also not too big a hassle as not individually jarred yet. Low number of spawns also a reason.

[Steven Cheng]

Can't give an answer to that for me, as I put fish in the direct tap water system only when they are big enough to eat tubifex or about 1.5 cm onwards.

Dare not risk at fry stage (before tubifex) and also not too big a hassle as not individually jarred yet. Low number of spawns also a reason.

[Steven Cheng]

O.K. My daughter has finally put all the pictures of the dripsystem in the following page: http://www.geocities.com/aurorabetta/dripsys/dripsystem.html

[Steven Cheng]

O.K. My daughter has finally put all the pictures of the dripsystem in the following page: http://www.geocities.com/aurorabetta/dripsys/dripsystem.html

[kennho]

Steven, you actually drip water from one container to another below ? am referring to the red tubes from the top most pic. Quite dirty for the tubs. Normally when I see a bit of dirt, it's out for cleaning. Maybe I too kiasu.

But WOW ! You give me tonnes of great ideas on how I should work on my own system.

[kennho]

Steven, you actually drip water from one container to another below ? am referring to the red tubes from the top most pic. Quite dirty for the tubs. Normally when I see a bit of dirt, it's out for cleaning. Maybe I too kiasu.

But WOW ! You give me tonnes of great ideas on how I should work on my own system.

[Foo Hong]

we need to visit yr home to get the blue print...serious.

[Foo Hong]

we need to visit yr home to get the blue print...serious.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi guys, I really hope that my crude system will stimulate more people to design their own system, as space and time are the main concerns/limitations of most local breeders and hohhyists.
Kenneth, you are right. The water drips from top to bottom via a straw (in a way, they are already recycled). They look dirty but the idea is to flush out enough waste materials/water that the fish do not get too stress. I was also hesitant to implement this system at first but after experimenting with the culls, I become more confident and implemented anyway. I hope more people are willing to share their ideas/systems as it would really give us the edge over our friends and competitors in the region. Kenneth, I think you can take the lead in this area.
Foo Hong, all betta lovers are welcome to know more about the simple system. Will try to persuade the "you know who" to open the doors. Anyway, I am still working on the drainage etc and wil be going to HK from 17th to 26th Nov, so, let's wait a while first.

[Steven Cheng]

Hi guys, I really hope that my crude system will stimulate more people to design their own system, as space and time are the main concerns/limitations of most local breeders and hohhyists.
Kenneth, you are right. The water drips from top to bottom via a straw (in a way, they are already recycled). They look dirty but the idea is to flush out enough waste materials/water that the fish do not get too stress. I was also hesitant to implement this system at first but after experimenting with the culls, I become more confident and implemented anyway. I hope more people are willing to share their ideas/systems as it would really give us the edge over our friends and competitors in the region. Kenneth, I think you can take the lead in this area.
Foo Hong, all betta lovers are welcome to know more about the simple system. Will try to persuade the "you know who" to open the doors. Anyway, I am still working on the drainage etc and wil be going to HK from 17th to 26th Nov, so, let's wait a while first.

[Chris Yew]

This is a very IMPORTANT THREAD and I must shift it to the Accesories and Equipment forum so that it's easier to find in future.

[Chris Yew]

This is a very IMPORTANT THREAD and I must shift it to the Accesories and Equipment forum so that it's easier to find in future.

[kennho]

STRAWS ! you use straw ? Creative !!!

Don't tease me Steven. I still need my mentor to guide me on another type of fish.

Actually I was browsing thru a couple of Betta Barrack using Yahoo and found a few like TK Lee's superb design but not good for HDB, and BCBetta which has a drip system but extremely complex. Also our local talent, Bettafreak, and his pretty cool design. All in all, expensive.

Yours - simple, unique, inexpensive. Practically easily replaceable tubs, simple to make, inexpensive upgrades and addons. Sounds like a DIY PC compare to branded models. hahahaha.

Here is something almost similar to a drip system but in bigger scale. Some koi farm using a constant water flow from ground source to refresh the fish pond (exceeded 5000L ponds) at a rate of 1L per min (estimated). Simulating a flow of river to wash off the toxins and refresh with clean water and minerals. Growth is quite astonishing. Discus on the other hand, daily water change is extremely important to the growth and shape. Some breeders even go for twice water change daily or more.

Before looking at the way you connect your tubs with tubes, I still trying to figure out should I do a zig zag tube connection or just top flow and drainage using pin holes poke under the tub. never cross my mind using a plastic flow adjuster. I dun use glass tanks, all in PET containers and tubs. Still trying to figure out how would I be using a filtration system over this.

When is your next batch going to hatch or any batch reaching 1 mth ? We can drop by to celebrate the hatching or "full month". hahahahaha ...

[kennho]

STRAWS ! you use straw ? Creative !!!

Don't tease me Steven. I still need my mentor to guide me on another type of fish.

Actually I was browsing thru a couple of Betta Barrack using Yahoo and found a few like TK Lee's superb design but not good for HDB, and BCBetta which has a drip system but extremely complex. Also our local talent, Bettafreak, and his pretty cool design. All in all, expensive.

Yours - simple, unique, inexpensive. Practically easily replaceable tubs, simple to make, inexpensive upgrades and addons. Sounds like a DIY PC compare to branded models. hahahaha.

Here is something almost similar to a drip system but in bigger scale. Some koi farm using a constant water flow from ground source to refresh the fish pond (exceeded 5000L ponds) at a rate of 1L per min (estimated). Simulating a flow of river to wash off the toxins and refresh with clean water and minerals. Growth is quite astonishing. Discus on the other hand, daily water change is extremely important to the growth and shape. Some breeders even go for twice water change daily or more.

Before looking at the way you connect your tubs with tubes, I still trying to figure out should I do a zig zag tube connection or just top flow and drainage using pin holes poke under the tub. never cross my mind using a plastic flow adjuster. I dun use glass tanks, all in PET containers and tubs. Still trying to figure out how would I be using a filtration system over this.

When is your next batch going to hatch or any batch reaching 1 mth ? We can drop by to celebrate the hatching or "full month". hahahahaha ...

[Dr Hsu]

Steven,

Your system is a little similar to what Roy has except that his is a recirculating system and possibly more compact as he uses guppy containers. Also, his overflow system "drains" from the bottom so "sucks" debris out. Very compact as well as the containers are all rectangular and pack together well. Of course, yours is much cheaper and possibly easier to set up - less drilling and gluing. If Roy's system uses your "drip from tap" idea, will probably work very similarly (and possibly better due to the removal of bottom debris) albeit more expensive.

[Dr Hsu]

Steven,

Your system is a little similar to what Roy has except that his is a recirculating system and possibly more compact as he uses guppy containers. Also, his overflow system "drains" from the bottom so "sucks" debris out. Very compact as well as the containers are all rectangular and pack together well. Of course, yours is much cheaper and possibly easier to set up - less drilling and gluing. If Roy's system uses your "drip from tap" idea, will probably work very similarly (and possibly better due to the removal of bottom debris) albeit more expensive.

[Steven Cheng]

Dr. Hsu, I have tried using the bottem drain tube but they got blocked easily as I used air tubing and accessaries that are too small for some poop from bigger fish. Also, a drip system does not have enough water flow to create the suction effect.

I am also using a semi drip plus overflow system with simple filtration which might help in Kenneth's idea of adding a filtration step to his system. But, I am in the process of converting all to the simpler drip system. Kenneth, pay peanuts get monkeys, plastic tubs are cheap but they crack easily and leak etc, expecting "monkeys", I just have to replace them whenever those minor problems surfaces. Plastic flow adjusters also get clogged up easily when used in a recirculated system due to slow flow of the drip head plus organic matter buildup, thus changing to simple drip and overflow system as drip rates are more constant and seldom choked. Costs wise, mainly the water consumption only, but have not done a comparison yet as some figures are just estimates, so will do that in December or January.
I will try to arrange for a few interested parties to see my setup after the December competition. Kenneth, I can also go to your place to see whether I can contribute my 2 cents worth to your system.

[Steven Cheng]

Dr. Hsu, I have tried using the bottem drain tube but they got blocked easily as I used air tubing and accessaries that are too small for some poop from bigger fish. Also, a drip system does not have enough water flow to create the suction effect.

I am also using a semi drip plus overflow system with simple filtration which might help in Kenneth's idea of adding a filtration step to his system. But, I am in the process of converting all to the simpler drip system. Kenneth, pay peanuts get monkeys, plastic tubs are cheap but they crack easily and leak etc, expecting "monkeys", I just have to replace them whenever those minor problems surfaces. Plastic flow adjusters also get clogged up easily when used in a recirculated system due to slow flow of the drip head plus organic matter buildup, thus changing to simple drip and overflow system as drip rates are more constant and seldom choked. Costs wise, mainly the water consumption only, but have not done a comparison yet as some figures are just estimates, so will do that in December or January.
I will try to arrange for a few interested parties to see my setup after the December competition. Kenneth, I can also go to your place to see whether I can contribute my 2 cents worth to your system.

[Chris Yew]

That's great Steven and Kenneth. Maybe we can arrange a visit to either one as BCS monthly event since after the competition, the comm. will be too tired and probably need time to rest. How about it?

[Chris Yew]

That's great Steven and Kenneth. Maybe we can arrange a visit to either one as BCS monthly event since after the competition, the comm. will be too tired and probably need time to rest. How about it?

[kennho]

Chris, Steven, so far, only Foong KY visited my place before and surely you guys will be shock to see my "smoke filled aquarium" house with tanks and pails of goldfishes. Not betta. I just started with slightly more betta not many months ago and the blood still not growing fast in me. :) Waited 2 years for Aquarama and the international goldfish competition, that's why I can't afford to pay too much attention to betta. Working on several projects to ease my "tasks" of keeping these fellows. One of it is a barrack that suit and a filter that works. And joining the club to taps knowledge and meet new friends.

I ever tried a simple setup one and all my delta turn veil tail. Those larger caudal tail betta can't go along with heavy water flow. Let me find time to setup a proper system and at the meantime, visit a few more friendly BCS members' home to figure out how I should be keeping.

[kennho]

Chris, Steven, so far, only Foong KY visited my place before and surely you guys will be shock to see my "smoke filled aquarium" house with tanks and pails of goldfishes. Not betta. I just started with slightly more betta not many months ago and the blood still not growing fast in me. :) Waited 2 years for Aquarama and the international goldfish competition, that's why I can't afford to pay too much attention to betta. Working on several projects to ease my "tasks" of keeping these fellows. One of it is a barrack that suit and a filter that works. And joining the club to taps knowledge and meet new friends.

I ever tried a simple setup one and all my delta turn veil tail. Those larger caudal tail betta can't go along with heavy water flow. Let me find time to setup a proper system and at the meantime, visit a few more friendly BCS members' home to figure out how I should be keeping.

[Dr Hsu]

Kenneth,

Would be interested in your feelings about flow rates for barracks system. There is a discussion going on in the IBC forum regarding barracks and someone suggested no more than 1/2 GPH, and I read somewhere (maybe same place) that they preferred closer to 1 GPH. My guess is that it would depend on the size of the tank/jar. Most of the americans use jars about 1 gallon so 1/2 GPH would be plenty. If you had a larger tank, could you go with a higher flow?

Have a system in my head that I would like to build but it would likely require a decent flow to push debris out of the overflow, but at the same time, need to make sure it's not too great for the fish.

[Dr Hsu]

Kenneth,

Would be interested in your feelings about flow rates for barracks system. There is a discussion going on in the IBC forum regarding barracks and someone suggested no more than 1/2 GPH, and I read somewhere (maybe same place) that they preferred closer to 1 GPH. My guess is that it would depend on the size of the tank/jar. Most of the americans use jars about 1 gallon so 1/2 GPH would be plenty. If you had a larger tank, could you go with a higher flow?

Have a system in my head that I would like to build but it would likely require a decent flow to push debris out of the overflow, but at the same time, need to make sure it's not too great for the fish.

[kennho]

The initial setup is using just a pump with some minor control. Flow rate around 20L per hour and the result ... bad, extremely bad. Not only the growth slow down, it's practically died slow. Some of the fish is not even growing. Caudal fins collapsed. Even feeding is normal, totally different from those that go in the jars. Filtration is a submerge power filter with floss and peat. pH control at 6.8, undetectable N, kH 4 deg stablisation done with sodium bicarbonate.

I just complete another set of 12 PET containers with a DIY filtration. Still working on the pH, kH control and estimating the flow rate. 1GPH ( 3.78L/H), hmmmm ... working on it now. Thanks Doc.

Got to figure out the flow requirement for the nitrification process. Digging my notes.

[kennho]

The initial setup is using just a pump with some minor control. Flow rate around 20L per hour and the result ... bad, extremely bad. Not only the growth slow down, it's practically died slow. Some of the fish is not even growing. Caudal fins collapsed. Even feeding is normal, totally different from those that go in the jars. Filtration is a submerge power filter with floss and peat. pH control at 6.8, undetectable N, kH 4 deg stablisation done with sodium bicarbonate.

I just complete another set of 12 PET containers with a DIY filtration. Still working on the pH, kH control and estimating the flow rate. 1GPH ( 3.78L/H), hmmmm ... working on it now. Thanks Doc.

Got to figure out the flow requirement for the nitrification process. Digging my notes.

[Dr Hsu]

Kenneth,

You're very technical with your systems...control not only just pH and NH3, NO2, NO3 but also kH! Most of us are just happy that the water is clear!:D

[Dr Hsu]

Kenneth,

You're very technical with your systems...control not only just pH and NH3, NO2, NO3 but also kH! Most of us are just happy that the water is clear!:D

[kennho]

Paisey Doc, not that particular for me lah. I only doing it for goldfish, since doing for so many tanks, no harm checking for another one.

Ok, completed working out. Phew a hard day work and will take another few wks to find out will this system work.

12 PET containers (24L) connected by meant of interconnection tube.
Submerge pump used 350L/H controlled to approximately 3.25 - 3.55 L/H. Very tricky to adjust.
Debris unable to remove as it's a overflow design. So weekly suction will be required. Monitoring.
If this work, then I work on a 30 PET containers model (60L).

6 Pics can be found here .... http://groups.msn.com/SilverBetta/bettabarrackexperimentalphase.msnw

If you notice, I am using a wall rack. The wood planks a bit curve liao. Worry lah. Going IKEA to wacko a few more reinforcement planks. Anyway, you guys are the few who see my pic collection of some of my fishes. Give some comments.

[kennho]

Paisey Doc, not that particular for me lah. I only doing it for goldfish, since doing for so many tanks, no harm checking for another one.

Ok, completed working out. Phew a hard day work and will take another few wks to find out will this system work.

12 PET containers (24L) connected by meant of interconnection tube.
Submerge pump used 350L/H controlled to approximately 3.25 - 3.55 L/H. Very tricky to adjust.
Debris unable to remove as it's a overflow design. So weekly suction will be required. Monitoring.
If this work, then I work on a 30 PET containers model (60L).

6 Pics can be found here .... http://groups.msn.com/SilverBetta/bettabarrackexperimentalphase.msnw

If you notice, I am using a wall rack. The wood planks a bit curve liao. Worry lah. Going IKEA to wacko a few more reinforcement planks. Anyway, you guys are the few who see my pic collection of some of my fishes. Give some comments.

[Foo Hong]

From my previous experience with marine systems and reading all these, There is alwaysa compromise btw flow vz fish. As we all know faster flow is better from all aspects of flitration in eleiminating waste. Acyually the idea behind all these systems is to take away the water changes which are so important. Hence to me the elements to bear in mind is
1. simplicity bcos we dont want to replace jar washes with barrack washes.
2. with fewer water changes, the net result on fish development must not be compromised.
3. water changes is still required and nothing is better than thta so there must be a easy water to drain water from the sump, maybe by turn of a tap where water gushes out like the washing machine drain pipe, then fill with fresh water again.

[Foo Hong]

From my previous experience with marine systems and reading all these, There is alwaysa compromise btw flow vz fish. As we all know faster flow is better from all aspects of flitration in eleiminating waste. Acyually the idea behind all these systems is to take away the water changes which are so important. Hence to me the elements to bear in mind is
1. simplicity bcos we dont want to replace jar washes with barrack washes.
2. with fewer water changes, the net result on fish development must not be compromised.
3. water changes is still required and nothing is better than thta so there must be a easy water to drain water from the sump, maybe by turn of a tap where water gushes out like the washing machine drain pipe, then fill with fresh water again.

[kennho]

Foo Hong, how's your direct water change experiment doing ?

I run into problem recently as my tap water pH jump up to 7.90 pretty bad for betta. Those using stored water at pH 6.7 looks much better and active. headache lah.

[kennho]

Foo Hong, how's your direct water change experiment doing ?

I run into problem recently as my tap water pH jump up to 7.90 pretty bad for betta. Those using stored water at pH 6.7 looks much better and active. headache lah.

[Foo Hong]

I didnt bother to ph test the water used on the betta guinea pigs, cos if they die I dont cry ...kekkee

They are still alive. I ve now only continued with teh jarred males only. While they dont die, I wanna see if they affect fin development. I actually gambled with a HM, with red washes of cos! Want to see if he willk turn into a quarter moon under this regime.

[Foo Hong]

I didnt bother to ph test the water used on the betta guinea pigs, cos if they die I dont cry ...kekkee

They are still alive. I ve now only continued with teh jarred males only. While they dont die, I wanna see if they affect fin development. I actually gambled with a HM, with red washes of cos! Want to see if he willk turn into a quarter moon under this regime.

[kennho]

see any of those Animals' Rights banners raising outside your gate ... :)

Anyway, some observation. At higher pH alkaline condition, nest build break up fast, smaller nest, inactive male. Acidic water condition, nest greatly formed, active male.

Of course, Ammonia measured is way too high after 3 days in alkaline condition. That's normal. But toxic to fish. A reason for the inactiveness, fin clamp and worst, crowntail rays bending.

3 'pet hamsters' died so far. poor fellows.

[kennho]

see any of those Animals' Rights banners raising outside your gate ... :)

Anyway, some observation. At higher pH alkaline condition, nest build break up fast, smaller nest, inactive male. Acidic water condition, nest greatly formed, active male.

Of course, Ammonia measured is way too high after 3 days in alkaline condition. That's normal. But toxic to fish. A reason for the inactiveness, fin clamp and worst, crowntail rays bending.

3 'pet hamsters' died so far. poor fellows.

[Foo Hong]

The experiment had ended! I ve reverted back to 'conditioner'.....thanks to SERA. For more info of the test results, tune in to class 95 FM....kekekekeke

[Foo Hong]

The experiment had ended! I ve reverted back to 'conditioner'.....thanks to SERA. For more info of the test results, tune in to class 95 FM....kekekekeke