Marble

[Jung]

Inspired by discussions again...maybe we can share past experiences here, so as not to have to do so many test crosses individually... And also: suggest to put up for BCS members any IBC articles (I'm sure some of us have them...)

For me, I'm convinced marble is the secret to creating new colours (I suspect you might even get there by F2 if you know what u are doing).

Discussion topic: Sharing of discoveries from marble crosses.

I will start off with discovery No. 1:

Grizzled pastel crosses well with marble. (i.e. large percentage of patterned offspring, even in F1). Have noticed a few grizzled HMs around, and many DDR CTs, so that's one way to improve the finnage of your marble line most efficiently...

[Dr Hsu]

Agree that marble is the key to new colors. Am pretty much convinced that Oranges came out of marbles (likely orange marble plakat). Only thing is that I don't like patterned fishes :). Can't stand the unpredictability about them....
At least with solid colors, there's an endpoint to aim for!

Regards,

Li Chieh

[Jung]

Hahaha! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> So I'm not the only one who doesn't believe Gilbert Lim's tale of how he got his oranges...

To me, true green (not turquoise) is even more likely to have come from marbles.

[roycheok]

hey, I am also starting to get interested in
my marbles (bought from Straits). Question is...
if marbled fish, how do you get pure/new colour
lines coming out from the spawn...

I just bought a orange-like DT with steel/turq
marbling on body/fins...and I intend to X with
a roybal blue. Is this a good pairing? or what
would you try to pair up with this marble female.

[Jung]

Marble is kinda recessive, so crossing solid to marble will usually give all solid (unless the solid fish carries marble or piebald or "mosiac" or something)... but may sometimes throw a very very small minority patterned fish... due to long-lost great great grandfather genes... But the marble kinda affects the solid colour...very unpredictable... so that's how new colour come about... (and also lots and lots of culls)... but usually must go past F2 to have any hope of seeing new colours (if you know what you are doing)... even if you are lucky enough, the next step is for you to hope and pray that you can stabilise it to breed true...

Royal blue lines are usually very stable and strong... so in all probability, you will get solid blues & turqs... lots of red wash showing up in my crystal ball... due to the orange-like colouring...

Very hard to advise on pairing... cos your description of the fish can contain any combination of genes... but if you pair with marble, you should get interesting patterned fishes, or with butterfly (somehow, its kinda related to marble, so you should get some patterned fish)... or MG/MG outcross (also somehow related to marble...)... (dont' know enough about this now...will share more once I've completed my thesis...)

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

[jonpoh]

I believe marbles are co-dominant genes. I have been working with marbles for more than 3 years. It seems every time, you cross a marble to a solid colour fish, you will likely to get some marbling pattern in the majority of the fishes. Either crystal-look alike fishes or some Solid with marbling or pie-bald features...
I think Foo Hong did a cross with my marbles and he have the same results. Like what I always believe, it is true that F2s are the ones that throw the special colours..
Emerald green are thrown from marbles and this one is no doubtly true. Dr Gene Lucas suggested crossing NR to Turquoise.. F2s should throw emeralds too.. ( if we are lucky )... I have never tried this crossing before and it sound weird to me.. But nevertheless, snice the master of Betta genetics said so... We gotcha agree. Lol! Let's say.. there is more than crossing a NR to a Turquoise.. Perhaps it is involves complicating crossing and not just the normal reciprocal type of cross.

regards


quote:
Marble is kinda recessive, so crossing solid to marble will usually give all solid (unless the solid fish carries marble or piebald or "mosiac" or something)... but may sometimes throw a very very small minority patterned fish... due to long-lost great great grandfather genes... But the marble kinda affects the solid colour...very unpredictable... so that's how new colour come about... (and also lots and lots of culls)... but usually must go past F2 to have any hope of seeing new colours (if you know what you are doing)... even if you are lucky enough, the next step is for you to hope and pray that you can stabilise it to breed true...

Royal blue lines are usually very stable and strong... so in all probability, you will get solid blues & turqs... lots of red wash showing up in my crystal ball... due to the orange-like colouring...

Very hard to advise on pairing... cos your description of the fish can contain any combination of genes... but if you pair with marble, you should get interesting patterned fishes, or with butterfly (somehow, its kinda related to marble, so you should get some patterned fish)... or MG/MG outcross (also somehow related to marble...)... (dont' know enough about this now...will share more once I've completed my thesis...)

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>




jonathan

[Jung]

JP,

Wow... if you have worked on them for more than three years, I guess you probably are right... Me only done three crosses: all rojak...blue with red fins, cambos, blues with wash... total of 2 proper marbles in one of the spawns! (Haven't got the mood to spawn for F2s yet)... why don't you share with us more of your discoveries in the three years working the marbles?

(Will continue testing... just obtained couple of new marble breeders <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

[jonpoh]

Hi
Jung,

Not really much to share about. Marbles are complex bettas, well at least they are to me. I am no expert in breeding marbles though, 3 years fooling around with marbles may not be as much as a serious breeder that concentrates on studying them for 1 year. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I know it sounds rather embrassing. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
So far I have did around 5 generations of marbles and you most probably go it right. I do a cross per year and normally outcross the fishes. In my own liking, I prefer emerald green, followed on by black-white marbles. My marbles strains originates from Darren Park's lines and are close to HMs. Perhaps around 170 degree. Each time I outcross them, they get either better or worse. So in the end, I didn't really get that far, just that while others lost the line I managed to substain it. The Park's line came from JJ whom imported the line. Ing Thye's albino female carry Park's genes too.
Well incase you would like to know, Darren Park's marbles won the overall champ for IBC shows for the marble category during one of the 199Xs? Yes.. they are very beautiful.!
I lost my line last year and was lucky to pass one of the female to
Foo Hong. He cross the female to one of his royal blue male and I believe one day the Homozygous marble genotype will resurface again

regards
Jonathan Poh

jonathan

[Samuel Phan]

Hi All,

Seems like marble have sparked some new interest here.
Just something to share on my recent marble spawn.
I did a spawn of Blue/White Butterfly Marble male (from Straits) with a Crystal/Camdodian female and this is the result that I got:
- Black/White Marbles: 20%
- Cambodians: 20%
- Black/Red Butterflies: 20%
- Blue/White Butterflies: 20% (with piebald)
- Crystals: 20%
- Irids: 2% (Steel Blue)
- Melanos: 2% (Black Lace)
The spawn size what about 200 to 300. Most of them are of round tail or delta finnage with some having crowns. Their finnage is nothing great to booast about .... in fact got alot of Veil tails. =(
Only a few has got secondary ray spilts.

Thus the above observation also further confirm on Jung's finding that marble spawns always tend to through out fishes like cellophanes(crystals) and fishes with piebald.

Plan to breed the black laces to see if they will breed through. Any good suggestions?

With Best Regards,
Samuel Phan



quote:
Hi
Jung,

Not really much to share about. Marbles are complex bettas, well at least they are to me. I am no expert in breeding marbles though, 3 years fooling around with marbles may not be as much as a serious breeder that concentrates on studying them for 1 year. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I know it sounds rather embrassing. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
So far I have did around 5 generations of marbles and you most probably go it right. I do a cross per year and normally outcross the fishes. In my own liking, I prefer emerald green, followed on by black-white marbles. My marbles strains originates from Darren Park's lines and are close to HMs. Perhaps around 170 degree. Each time I outcross them, they get either better or worse. So in the end, I didn't really get that far, just that while others lost the line I managed to substain it. The Park's line came from JJ whom imported the line. Ing Thye's albino female carry Park's genes too.
Well incase you would like to know, Darren Park's marbles won the overall champ for IBC shows for the marble category during one of the 199Xs? Yes.. they are very beautiful.!
I lost my line last year and was lucky to pass one of the female to
Foo Hong. He cross the female to one of his royal blue male and I believe one day the Homozygous marble genotype will resurface again

regards
Jonathan Poh

jonathan


Samuel Phan **** Chiat
(Creator Of Sam's Betta Colour Rendezvous)

[Foo Hong]

Oh JonPoh, I crossed the marble female of yours to a steel DTM from teh RichardYu/Goettner line, not a royal blue. I used a pair of the darker F1 to do the F2, and discarded the cellophane ones...dont have so much time like Gilberts Orange experiment. Its F2 now and as we speak they are abt few wks old for 1st spawn and a second spawn is abt 1 wk plus old. the larger spawns is appearing to be irids so far in colour. still little ikan bilis so cant tell yet. But very excited abt their colour development. Using a torch light to check everynight after coming back from work <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

...yeah yeah...marble marble here we come......

[jonpoh]

Hahaha
Foo Hong,

Well.. Almost the same right.. Steels, royal, turquoise all are irids right.. Royal blue carries steels genes in it also mah. Royal blue is Incomplete dominance genes mah...
Happy to know that you are going into the F2s now.. I'm sure you will get something very interesting out of it.. Enjoy marbling with fun..

With Marble regards

quote:
Oh JonPoh, I crossed the marble female of yours to a steel DTM from teh RichardYu/Goettner line, not a royal blue. I used a pair of the darker F1 to do the F2, and discarded the cellophane ones...dont have so much time like Gilberts Orange experiment. Its F2 now and as we speak they are abt few wks old for 1st spawn and a second spawn is abt 1 wk plus old. the larger spawns is appearing to be irids so far in colour. still little ikan bilis so cant tell yet. But very excited abt their colour development. Using a torch light to check everynight after coming back from work <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

...yeah yeah...marble marble here we come......




jonathan

[Chris Yew]

The Yahoo Group Betta Genetically Speaking forum has a very good discussion on Marble by Steven. Here are the summary of it;

1. Marble is actually a gene that weaken/limit the colors of fish.

2. If a solid colored fish from a marble line is spawned to a solid colored non-marble fish, the offspring normally be solid colors even in subsequent generations.

3. Marble will throw traits that varies between lines. Ie: piebald, buttterfly, reverse butterfly. Which if you can isolate a trait that you want and have a pair, you can breed them and get only that trait in subsequent generations. Eg. - Gilbert's Orange (may contain marble gene).

4. Non-marbling-body butterfly that comes from marbles will have the same characteristic just like a solid color that comes from marble line. That is when the butterflies are bred to the same solid color that comes from solid color line, the offsprings will all have butterfly partial dominant gene. :D

[Foo Hong]

So what is say Blue/white BF x Blue[non-marble..at all] ???

[Chris Yew]

I've not tried it yet as Blue is never my priority. But based on the point 4, will it be Blue/White BF partial dominant gene? Guess onli lah.:)

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

So what is say Blue/white BF x Blue[non-marble..at all] ???

[Sebas]

Marbles rules! kekeke. I also have a question. Is it possible to lock a certain phenotype that appears in marble spawn? Lets say my white-eye marbles, what must i do to get more percentage of such fishes in a spawn?

[Foo Hong]

Any colour can be locked by breeding like to like.

What is partrial dominant marble gene..halo?

[Chris Yew]

Locking a phenotype that appears in a marble spawn - if that's a genetic question, I think pheno is not a gene for a trait which can be passed down regardless of whether it's from a marble spawn.

Dr. Gene Lucas has written some interesting articles regarding genetics and here are some references to it;

1. We tend to look upon overall phenotype as representative of a single functional genetic factor when most often it is the result of some combination of factors.

2. A phenotype that does not represent a single gene. Eg. Yellow Bettas do not result from the action of a single gene.

3. Genetic variation that may be generated by polygenic action. Eg. Extended Red (Er) and Si

and this is even more intesting;

4. What we want to find out is if the trait will reappear in later generations which would prove that it is genetic, rather than an accidental occurrence generated by some factor other than a genetic mutation. If we see F 1 progeny developing the new trait we assume that it is genetic and was passed from the affected individual to its offspring. If that happens we also know that the trait is probably dominant although there is the possibility that it could be recessive and the other parent carried only one allele for it (an allele is one member of a pair of genes). In that case the other parent "carried" the trait but did not show it because it had a normal dominant allele which prevented it from developing. If two individuals came together, both possessing one or more recessive mutant genes, then the mutation would have to have occurred at some previous time.

Well, when you said white-eye marlbes - do you mean white eye ring or eye-ball?

quote:Originally posted by Sebas

Marbles rules! kekeke. I also have a question. Is it possible to lock a certain phenotype that appears in marble spawn? Lets say my white-eye marbles, what must i do to get more percentage of such fishes in a spawn?

[Chris Yew]

Partial dominant gene - Ask Dr. or your guess is as good as mine. hehe.[:p]

quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

Any colour can be locked by breeding like to like.

What is partrial dominant marble gene..halo?

[Sebas]

My white eye is only a surfacial name for my plakats. My plakats with white eye rings will have a distinct brownish body with green irids. On the caudal will be 2 color bands, brown and yellow. At 1st i tot it was just one of those weird fish from the spawn, but after keeping about 10 runts individually, majority of them developed the similar features. So i was thinking if i can further improve the percentage of the occurance of such features in the future generations.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Sebas,
Isn't white eye ring common? I think most fishes are white eye ring though some are black;

Black Eye Ring;
Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif F1LemonYellowChiffon2.jpg (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Chris Yew/2003121132155_F1LemonYellowChiffon2.jpg)
27.84KB

White Eye Ring;
Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif F1LemonYellowChiffon3.jpg (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/Chris Yew/2003121132331_F1LemonYellowChiffon3.jpg)
29.14KB

[Sebas]

Hi Chris,
Your chiffon is very nice! Oh, if you look that piece has a more yellow eye ring than white.

Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif white eye.JPG (http://www.bettaclub.org.sg/forum/uploaded/sebas/2003121132918_white eye.JPG)
69.14KB

here, you've seen him before for upteen times and everyone knows he's my favourite. Heres and updated photo of him. Has spawned already!

[derrick kuah]

hi , chris and guys ,i m not a thoery man , i like to see what i do.what i m going to say might follow the "rules" but this is what happen:
first , i started with two pairs Gibert dt black /orange, try spawning them but failed than ,three pcs died ,left with one male.i cross it to a steel/black laced female. got most butterfly pattern fires(most irees body with orange red pattern and laced).next i took a female(close to father ,black body,orange butterfly with laced at edge)to cross back ti his father.i got about 50% of fries same colour as father except some with irres trait on dorsai and anal fin. next round three,i crossed f2 xf2(same orange /black), i got most of fries same as father except ,the colour of orange turned more toward red instead of orange(so what happen here)than i stopped here. still have many fries with me. can jarred them for you guys to study during the visit.oh yeah , along the way (spawning), i actually isolated the black fries and cross them. right now i have quite of nos. of black/iress with white butterfly dt(by the way ,they are all dt)also got cambodia with orange or chocalate fins fishes. and all the fries from day 1 are all mArbled or butterfly. the black butterfly are as stated by chris ,black marbled butterfly ,some with piebald and some with crystal iress transparent finnages.as for the "study" if you guys want it , i can jarred them accordingly to day1 spawning colour i had used than maybe you can explain what happen along the way.thanks and again please excuse me for any error in typing or my english, i find its a problems check .......

[Chris Yew]

Me too not theory man but liked to pose as one, lol!

I remember Maran also told me about his initial failures to spawn that Gilbert's Orange Black. Well Black body and Orange fins - non marbled body. So I think it's possible to 'fix' it in subsequent spawn. Now there are Black Orange too - Orange Body and Black Fins - think it's by BC Bettas.

Personally when I looked at the Black body of Gilbert's Orange Black (though it's not from him but Maran), I find the black not the same kind of black color of a black betta. This black body is rather like dull color type of like darker shade of Reduced Red betta body. I have some of those body with Red fins in my F2 Chiffon spawn - siblings to my Purple Red Chiffon. Cull most away.

Well, I think whenever marble gene is around, the possibilities are unlimited.

[derrick kuah]

chris , i suspected the Gibert black /orange is from mg or the other way round.from same crossing ,i actually got some mg(or mg look alike) after f4(original line) than i took these to cross among themself and i get mg and some lemon like mg, only 10% of fries are of other colours(irees marbled ,white body with pastel red finnages) so what you think?.are there a relation here.thanks and regards Derrick++

[Chris Yew]

Yes, if I didn't remember wrong Gilbert's Orange Black is derived from MG.

[derrick kuah]

thanks chris, you are a great help .just let me know if you need me to jar the fishes . thanks and regards Derrick++

[Chris Yew]

You are welcome, Derrick. Jar those that you think it's a good trait to pass on. Usually I think you may have to compromise on the finnage unless you are lucky, haha.

[derrick kuah]

yes, the finnages are not up to imagination,same with Maran black/orange.maybe ,its in the genos.will have to work very hard to improve. thanks and regards Derrick++

[Myron Tay]

Alex

Could I invite you to share your experience in the marble gene here?

[Alex Steffen]

I started my first attempt on marbles in early february this year. Before, I had seen some marbles on Aquabid and thought how great it would be to have such pattern on HM. So I asked Peter Goettner and Rajiv Masillamoni who were in Germany in novemeber 2002 to do the judging in the German Betta Division Show. They told me I should look out for a female with little marble effect and breed it to a turquoise HM which I was showing at the exhibition. The next months I spent searching for marble females in the German betta community with little success. Only two people were offering me their females, one was dt and one was dt geno. I purchased three of the dt geno ones but unfortunately the paket got lost during transport. It was disappeared for nearly two weeks in a mid december with approx. -5

[Myron Tay]

Originally posted by Thomas:

Would like to know more about the marble gene and the butterfly effect. Anyone who has any knowledge, please share.

Is it a recessive gene? And what is the relation to the butterfly gene?

[unclejunkin]

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

Yes, if I didn't remember wrong Gilbert's Orange Black is derived from MG.


Hi Chris,Were did you get that info from??
Unclejunkin

[unclejunkin]

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

chris , i suspected the Gibert black /orange is from mg or the other way round.from same crossing ,i actually got some mg(or mg look alike) after f4(original line) than i took these to cross among themself and i get mg and some lemon like mg, only 10% of fries are of other colours(irees marbled ,white body with pastel red finnages) so what you think?.are there a relation here.thanks and regards Derrick++


Hi Derrick,I think there might be some kind relation with MG,someone said that to me before.I think there is work to be done with the Lemon and Pastel,that should give you Marbles ,if the MG is in the line.Good Luck .
Unclejunkin