Imbellis Genetics

[Toh Chen Han]

I think there is some connection between the green imbellis hybrids and the coppers. Actually come to think of it I've a strong feeling Dr Hsu's intuition is correct. Best guess now is that there is a gene for copper (gene C) and green (gene G) with G as the dominant gene.

When i bought my green imbellis pair (hybrids) I was told that they carried copper genes so that spawning them would throw some coppers. Unfortunately when the pair was spawned many of the fries died and there are only three survivors being raised by a friend (haven't checked on them).Subsequently lost the father so no more possibility of experimenting with that particular pairing.

I recently did another green imbellis spawn but used a different male (I don't know if his genos are CG or GG...so not sure if there is any chance at all of throwing coppers). They are really young so it will be a long time before I can say more about this.

ANyway with there being so many coppers around these days there is no more need to outcross copper to green to try to get a female. Just buy copper female - expensive but saves a load of time in the end.

The more interesting spawns these days seem to me to be the mahacai outcrosses being attempted...Sam..all eyes on you now heheh. =)

[Dr Hsu]

First thing to say is that you should NEVER invent your own symbols to represent unknown traits. The copper trait is currently an unknown (from a genetics standpoint) and no symbols should be used to represent it especially since it is not even known if the inheritence follows simple mendelian inheritence. Also green already has well established genetic symbols for it BlBl, or more appropriately if you follow Gene Lucas' preferred method +//+ since green is the dominant wild type color.

[Dr Hsu]

First thing to say is that you should NEVER invent your own symbols to represent unknown traits. The copper trait is currently an unknown (from a genetics standpoint) and no symbols should be used to represent it especially since it is not even known if the inheritence follows simple mendelian inheritence. Also green already has well established genetic symbols for it BlBl, or more appropriately if you follow Gene Lucas' preferred method +//+ since green is the dominant wild type color.

[Toh Chen Han]

True, this copper genetics discussion is very hypothetical so we can only talk about the genes in putative terms until someone finds out for sure what really goes on. I'm afraid for now I can't follow/use the established genetic symbols simply because I don't know them yet.

[Toh Chen Han]

True, this copper genetics discussion is very hypothetical so we can only talk about the genes in putative terms until someone finds out for sure what really goes on. I'm afraid for now I can't follow/use the established genetic symbols simply because I don't know them yet.

[Steven Cheng]

I am very interested in working on the Imbellis (gold and copper etc). Wish to find out whether it is possible to cross Imbellis with Plakats or SD. Any suggestions? Would love to learn more on how to work with the Imbellis genes, even suggested experimental crosses. Care to share a few things on this, Dr. Hsu?

[Steven Cheng]

I am very interested in working on the Imbellis (gold and copper etc). Wish to find out whether it is possible to cross Imbellis with Plakats or SD. Any suggestions? Would love to learn more on how to work with the Imbellis genes, even suggested experimental crosses. Care to share a few things on this, Dr. Hsu?

[derrick kuah]

i actually have a spawn from mahachia blue x imbellis mask(mask and imbelliss hybrid).they are 10 days old. thought of doing a copper x mahachia but have second thought since green/blue dominant over copper. will wait to see samuel,s result. will try my goldx silver and silver xsilver.will its been a good idea to cross copper/gold to black plakat.if the f1 has black base colour instead of red/copper than ,they are going to be very outstanding.well,well . they are always possibility.please give suggesstion, i will try them. thank Derrick++

[derrick kuah]

i actually have a spawn from mahachia blue x imbellis mask(mask and imbelliss hybrid).they are 10 days old. thought of doing a copper x mahachia but have second thought since green/blue dominant over copper. will wait to see samuel,s result. will try my goldx silver and silver xsilver.will its been a good idea to cross copper/gold to black plakat.if the f1 has black base colour instead of red/copper than ,they are going to be very outstanding.well,well . they are always possibility.please give suggesstion, i will try them. thank Derrick++

[Samuel Phan]

Yes guys ... I do have the Copper Imbellis X Green Mahachai spawn ... but they seems to grow up really slowly.

This is unlike my other spawns that probably grow 2 times faster.

[Samuel Phan]

Yes guys ... I do have the Copper Imbellis X Green Mahachai spawn ... but they seems to grow up really slowly.

This is unlike my other spawns that probably grow 2 times faster.

[Toh Chen Han]

I went over to my friend's (Foong) place yesterday to have a look at the only three survivors of an earlier straits bluepearl imbellis spawn. One of them is jet black based! Quite a startling colour and totally unexpected. Consequently the green irids stand by stark contrast. The fellow is still itsy bitsy, will be interesting to watch his colour develop.

[Toh Chen Han]

I went over to my friend's (Foong) place yesterday to have a look at the only three survivors of an earlier straits bluepearl imbellis spawn. One of them is jet black based! Quite a startling colour and totally unexpected. Consequently the green irids stand by stark contrast. The fellow is still itsy bitsy, will be interesting to watch his colour develop.

[Dr Hsu]

You can cross imbellis and splendens without any problems. Some authors view them as actually one species. Genetically, treat them as for splendens. Copper etc is recessive (as far as I know) but will only be able to confirm after I do a F1.

[Dr Hsu]

You can cross imbellis and splendens without any problems. Some authors view them as actually one species. Genetically, treat them as for splendens. Copper etc is recessive (as far as I know) but will only be able to confirm after I do a F1.

[Foo Hong]

When u get a delta copper let me know, I cross it into my turquoise!

[Foo Hong]

When u get a delta copper let me know, I cross it into my turquoise!

[Toh Chen Han]

For the copper gene hunters, some observations:

My straits pearl imbellis fries (bluegreen parents) seem to be bluegreen and copper. I can't tell for sure yet, the fries are only just showing colour now at 4 weeks. This morning I was slightly annoyed because I thought the larger fries were showing red wash, but when I looked more closely, they had a slightiridiscent copperish colouring and no green at all (so it's not just red wash on my green fish). Percentage low...about 10-15 percent.

The uncle who sold me the breeding pair said something about them being copper crosses and to expect coppers in the spawn but I didn't really put much stock into that.

Will be interesting to see whether they develop into true coppers. If they do, then breeding a pair of the 'coppers' for F2 might give some info on how the genes responsible for copper work.

[Toh Chen Han]

For the copper gene hunters, some observations:

My straits pearl imbellis fries (bluegreen parents) seem to be bluegreen and copper. I can't tell for sure yet, the fries are only just showing colour now at 4 weeks. This morning I was slightly annoyed because I thought the larger fries were showing red wash, but when I looked more closely, they had a slightiridiscent copperish colouring and no green at all (so it's not just red wash on my green fish). Percentage low...about 10-15 percent.

The uncle who sold me the breeding pair said something about them being copper crosses and to expect coppers in the spawn but I didn't really put much stock into that.

Will be interesting to see whether they develop into true coppers. If they do, then breeding a pair of the 'coppers' for F2 might give some info on how the genes responsible for copper work.

[Myron Tay]

Chen Han

Any updates?

[Myron Tay]

Chen Han

Any updates?

[Myron Tay]

So Dr Hsu, are coppers recessive?

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

You can cross imbellis and splendens without any problems. Some authors view them as actually one species. Genetically, treat them as for splendens. Copper etc is recessive (as far as I know) but will only be able to confirm after I do a F1.

[Myron Tay]

So Dr Hsu, are coppers recessive?

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

You can cross imbellis and splendens without any problems. Some authors view them as actually one species. Genetically, treat them as for splendens. Copper etc is recessive (as far as I know) but will only be able to confirm after I do a F1.

[Ong Ginyew]

ermm...i got a question...seen d word recessive alot of times...but no idea what is means. not even on d dictionary.
can explain?
Thanks

[Ong Ginyew]

ermm...i got a question...seen d word recessive alot of times...but no idea what is means. not even on d dictionary.
can explain?
Thanks

[derrick kuah]

ong Ginyew, will try to answer your question.
mean when you cross two fishes , one fish<s gene is weaker than another.eg plakat(short tail recessive) x delta hm(long tail,,dominant),result with all long tail offspring. But if you breed the offsprings(f1), will be able to get some % shortail back in f2(25%).

myron, what is recessive in copper? the gold iress shield or ....others.
if you think ,the gold iress are , i think they are not.
did a few crossing on gold imbellis with hms and plakat
1)white gold xturquios hm female....variuos colour fries but all with the glod gloss finishing.

2)gold x mask plakat......good turquios(jade colour) with mask and the normal imbellis gloss finish.

3)gold x psetel dt plakat.....beautiful marbled pastel imbellis with the mask and imbellis glos on bodies.

haven,t do f1 x f1 yet but from these, uit looked like ,they are not recessive,maybe partially
cos the gloss is not as good as imbellis(normal).

[derrick kuah]

ong Ginyew, will try to answer your question.
mean when you cross two fishes , one fish<s gene is weaker than another.eg plakat(short tail recessive) x delta hm(long tail,,dominant),result with all long tail offspring. But if you breed the offsprings(f1), will be able to get some % shortail back in f2(25%).

myron, what is recessive in copper? the gold iress shield or ....others.
if you think ,the gold iress are , i think they are not.
did a few crossing on gold imbellis with hms and plakat
1)white gold xturquios hm female....variuos colour fries but all with the glod gloss finishing.

2)gold x mask plakat......good turquios(jade colour) with mask and the normal imbellis gloss finish.

3)gold x psetel dt plakat.....beautiful marbled pastel imbellis with the mask and imbellis glos on bodies.

haven,t do f1 x f1 yet but from these, uit looked like ,they are not recessive,maybe partially
cos the gloss is not as good as imbellis(normal).

[derrick kuah]

oh ya , i have a problem , being budding me for a long time.
sometime ago , did a mahachai x mask plakat(both shortail). BUt interesting part is, the fries all long tail.DR ,those mahachia in roy, planted tank. they are from this spawn.So what you think. could it be , in nature imbellis , are longtail in the first place before turning into shortail(by chioce).

[derrick kuah]

oh ya , i have a problem , being budding me for a long time.
sometime ago , did a mahachai x mask plakat(both shortail). BUt interesting part is, the fries all long tail.DR ,those mahachia in roy, planted tank. they are from this spawn.So what you think. could it be , in nature imbellis , are longtail in the first place before turning into shortail(by chioce).

[Dr Hsu]

Ginyew: I think you need a new dictionary!:D In genetics, traits are controlled by genes; and in simple mendelian genetics, these genes work in simple pairs. Dominant genes only need one of a pair to show the trait (phenotype) whilst recessive traits need two to show the trait. In a sense, "weaker", as explained by Derrick.

Derrick: I'm not 100% sure the white golds are copper based. Also you may be confusing the high iridescence with what we are talking about ie the "gold"/copper color in copper plakat/imbellis. This trait is recessive in the simple mendelian fashion. Pretty much confirmed this with my spawnings. Only thing is that the copper does not seem to pass down intact - color is more metallic true steel/titanium color. Still definately not the traditional blue irids series. Perhaps it is modified somewhat in the crosses, or perhaps the base color has something to do with it.....may be the case as the Thai copper deltas look different from mine.

[Dr Hsu]

Ginyew: I think you need a new dictionary!:D In genetics, traits are controlled by genes; and in simple mendelian genetics, these genes work in simple pairs. Dominant genes only need one of a pair to show the trait (phenotype) whilst recessive traits need two to show the trait. In a sense, "weaker", as explained by Derrick.

Derrick: I'm not 100% sure the white golds are copper based. Also you may be confusing the high iridescence with what we are talking about ie the "gold"/copper color in copper plakat/imbellis. This trait is recessive in the simple mendelian fashion. Pretty much confirmed this with my spawnings. Only thing is that the copper does not seem to pass down intact - color is more metallic true steel/titanium color. Still definately not the traditional blue irids series. Perhaps it is modified somewhat in the crosses, or perhaps the base color has something to do with it.....may be the case as the Thai copper deltas look different from mine.