test tube fries

[Toh Chen Han]

Hello there,

I need to find out some artificial breeding tricks because I seem to have a dud male I want to breed. He doesn't blow bubbles so there's no nest, and he won't be able to take care of fries or eggs.

Has anyone successfully bred such males? Bubble-borrowing? Want to know the specifics if this works. Also has anyone done artificial hatching? If the pair spawns and I remove the fish, and lower the water to 1 cm, will that work?

Would appreciate any help here! Thanks a lot!

Regads

[Dr Hsu]

Chen Han,

If the male doesn't build a nest in his jar/tank, that does not mean he will not do so given the right conditions/stimulation.

Put him in breeding tank with something to build his nest under (for stubborn males, a natural leaf works best), a little ketapang essence, and the stimulation of a female - he'll build a mega nest overnight!

I just dump my pairs into a new spawning tank in the pm/evening and usually the next morning, there is a huge nest even though there was none the night before....

[Dr Hsu]

Chen Han,

If the male doesn't build a nest in his jar/tank, that does not mean he will not do so given the right conditions/stimulation.

Put him in breeding tank with something to build his nest under (for stubborn males, a natural leaf works best), a little ketapang essence, and the stimulation of a female - he'll build a mega nest overnight!

I just dump my pairs into a new spawning tank in the pm/evening and usually the next morning, there is a huge nest even though there was none the night before....

[Toh Chen Han]

Hi Li Chieh,

But this guy doesn't seem to have ever built a bubblenest. I've put females in before but no effect. Made a nice spawning tank with styro cup and ketapang etc and put a fat girl in and he still doesn't want to do the nest...its like he just doesnt have the instinct! But he does all the other things that males do, chasing the female all over the place - she looks frustrated...cos she wants to spawn...hangs about under the cup (I put some borrowed bubbles in but not enuf for her I think) and even blew a couple of bubbles there to give the guy a hint!

Well...the pair seem to be getting closer...they might eventually spawn if left a day or two more (I only put the female in yesterday).

Maybe he just doesn't like the water. Currently I put aquamed blackwater extract, a bit of antichlorine into my aged water for all the fish. As mentioned I also put some ketapang into the spawning tank. Going to try going without all the additives since they're clearly not working. Last night I put some plain tapwater out to age...will give the pair another day and if nothing happens, do a full water change and see how.

In any case I may still have to give the bubble borrowing and artificial hatching route a try. Any experience shared would be great!

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

Chen Han,

If the male doesn't build a nest in his jar/tank, that does not mean he will not do so given the right conditions/stimulation.

Put him in breeding tank with something to build his nest under (for stubborn males, a natural leaf works best), a little ketapang essence, and the stimulation of a female - he'll build a mega nest overnight!

I just dump my pairs into a new spawning tank in the pm/evening and usually the next morning, there is a huge nest even though there was none the night before....

[Toh Chen Han]

Hi Li Chieh,

But this guy doesn't seem to have ever built a bubblenest. I've put females in before but no effect. Made a nice spawning tank with styro cup and ketapang etc and put a fat girl in and he still doesn't want to do the nest...its like he just doesnt have the instinct! But he does all the other things that males do, chasing the female all over the place - she looks frustrated...cos she wants to spawn...hangs about under the cup (I put some borrowed bubbles in but not enuf for her I think) and even blew a couple of bubbles there to give the guy a hint!

Well...the pair seem to be getting closer...they might eventually spawn if left a day or two more (I only put the female in yesterday).

Maybe he just doesn't like the water. Currently I put aquamed blackwater extract, a bit of antichlorine into my aged water for all the fish. As mentioned I also put some ketapang into the spawning tank. Going to try going without all the additives since they're clearly not working. Last night I put some plain tapwater out to age...will give the pair another day and if nothing happens, do a full water change and see how.

In any case I may still have to give the bubble borrowing and artificial hatching route a try. Any experience shared would be great!

quote:Originally posted by Dr Hsu

Chen Han,

If the male doesn't build a nest in his jar/tank, that does not mean he will not do so given the right conditions/stimulation.

Put him in breeding tank with something to build his nest under (for stubborn males, a natural leaf works best), a little ketapang essence, and the stimulation of a female - he'll build a mega nest overnight!

I just dump my pairs into a new spawning tank in the pm/evening and usually the next morning, there is a huge nest even though there was none the night before....

[Foo Hong]

aquamedi balck water extract is about the shxxttiest product you can buy. better used for chinese calligraphy. tetra or fresh ketapang seems better.
what Hsu said is very true.

[Foo Hong]

aquamedi balck water extract is about the shxxttiest product you can buy. better used for chinese calligraphy. tetra or fresh ketapang seems better.
what Hsu said is very true.

[Toh Chen Han]

I'm sorry Foo Hong, you are definitely much more experienced than me, but this time I don't agree with what you said about aquamed blackwater extract: It's definitely no good for calligraphy - FAR too light! :D

That said, I'm going to keep changing the water/environment parameters of the breeding tank till I get the right conditions to trigger off the spawning...each trial maybe leave for 3 -5 days with reconditioning breaks in between.

Thanks for all the advice! Well appreciated. :)

Regards

[Toh Chen Han]

I'm sorry Foo Hong, you are definitely much more experienced than me, but this time I don't agree with what you said about aquamed blackwater extract: It's definitely no good for calligraphy - FAR too light! :D

That said, I'm going to keep changing the water/environment parameters of the breeding tank till I get the right conditions to trigger off the spawning...each trial maybe leave for 3 -5 days with reconditioning breaks in between.

Thanks for all the advice! Well appreciated. :)

Regards

[Sebas]

Dump the male into a breeding tank with a ketapang leaf soaked in it. At the end of the whole story, the male either tries to kill the female or they make alot of babies. The only outlier i have seen is a bapok male who became sisters with the female.[}:)]

[Sebas]

Dump the male into a breeding tank with a ketapang leaf soaked in it. At the end of the whole story, the male either tries to kill the female or they make alot of babies. The only outlier i have seen is a bapok male who became sisters with the female.[}:)]

[Toh Chen Han]

Yes, bapok is my copper's middle name. I decided that the pair were behaving more like (gurly) flatmates than breeders....gave up.

quote:Originally posted by Sebas

Dump the male into a breeding tank with a ketapang leaf soaked in it. At the end of the whole story, the male either tries to kill the female or they make alot of babies. The only outlier i have seen is a bapok male who became sisters with the female.[}:)]

[Toh Chen Han]

Yes, bapok is my copper's middle name. I decided that the pair were behaving more like (gurly) flatmates than breeders....gave up.

quote:Originally posted by Sebas

Dump the male into a breeding tank with a ketapang leaf soaked in it. At the end of the whole story, the male either tries to kill the female or they make alot of babies. The only outlier i have seen is a bapok male who became sisters with the female.[}:)]

[derrick kuah]

Hi, chenhan, i have two spawns from copper(you saw) well copper is different from other betta i think. mine seemed like they are not interested for two days(no bubble)the two played around but doing nothing than all a sudden started thier routine. very small bubble nest and also small spawn(around50 pcs)another point. it seemed to me it take up to five days for all fries to be free swimmers.also left the male in the tank for up to one week(found very good father. for both). i started feeding to them after third day. now have different sizes fries.

[derrick kuah]

Hi, chenhan, i have two spawns from copper(you saw) well copper is different from other betta i think. mine seemed like they are not interested for two days(no bubble)the two played around but doing nothing than all a sudden started thier routine. very small bubble nest and also small spawn(around50 pcs)another point. it seemed to me it take up to five days for all fries to be free swimmers.also left the male in the tank for up to one week(found very good father. for both). i started feeding to them after third day. now have different sizes fries.

[Foo Hong]

plakats are easiest to spawn. actually all they need is very show 'pond-like' condition. Sometime back when I started with show bettas, I bot a few young female plakats for 50cts each and threw them 3 each in each styrobox there were seeded with soil and sand from a stream near Upper pierce, just to see how long they can last naturally w/o food. Ha...one of the 'females' eventually turn out to be a male. He picked his mate and killed the other. They spawn in 2.5 inches of water, beneath water lettuce. over 200 fries !

[Foo Hong]

plakats are easiest to spawn. actually all they need is very show 'pond-like' condition. Sometime back when I started with show bettas, I bot a few young female plakats for 50cts each and threw them 3 each in each styrobox there were seeded with soil and sand from a stream near Upper pierce, just to see how long they can last naturally w/o food. Ha...one of the 'females' eventually turn out to be a male. He picked his mate and killed the other. They spawn in 2.5 inches of water, beneath water lettuce. over 200 fries !

[Samuel Phan]

Derrick ...

You are right ... they fries free swim very much later as compared to normal bettas.

Mine is now about 4 days and not all are fre-swimming yet ....

But my fries are bigger probably the female I used is an old female and have been conditioned for a longer period of time.

Also ... contrary to your observation ... my male made the nest upon seeing the styrofoam cup ... spawned with the female on the second day.

With Best Regards,
Sam

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Hi, chenhan, i have two spawns from copper(you saw) well copper is different from other betta i think. mine seemed like they are not interested for two days(no bubble)the two played around but doing nothing than all a sudden started thier routine. very small bubble nest and also small spawn(around50 pcs)another point. it seemed to me it take up to five days for all fries to be free swimmers.also left the male in the tank for up to one week(found very good father. for both). i started feeding to them after third day. now have different sizes fries.

[Samuel Phan]

Derrick ...

You are right ... they fries free swim very much later as compared to normal bettas.

Mine is now about 4 days and not all are fre-swimming yet ....

But my fries are bigger probably the female I used is an old female and have been conditioned for a longer period of time.

Also ... contrary to your observation ... my male made the nest upon seeing the styrofoam cup ... spawned with the female on the second day.

With Best Regards,
Sam

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

Hi, chenhan, i have two spawns from copper(you saw) well copper is different from other betta i think. mine seemed like they are not interested for two days(no bubble)the two played around but doing nothing than all a sudden started thier routine. very small bubble nest and also small spawn(around50 pcs)another point. it seemed to me it take up to five days for all fries to be free swimmers.also left the male in the tank for up to one week(found very good father. for both). i started feeding to them after third day. now have different sizes fries.

[Toh Chen Han]

How come some spawns so easy some so difficult. Just did a spawn straits pearl imbellis pair...no problem....male blow a lot of bubbles just chuck the female in...24 hours later voila. 36 hours later fries hatch already. Free swimming in 2 days plus.

(not slow like the copper/mahacai spawn leh).

After that one small feeding of bbs...followed directly by daphnia...no problems.

Tried my copper male with the same female above a couple of weeks back...nothing but torn fins to show for it.

[Toh Chen Han]

How come some spawns so easy some so difficult. Just did a spawn straits pearl imbellis pair...no problem....male blow a lot of bubbles just chuck the female in...24 hours later voila. 36 hours later fries hatch already. Free swimming in 2 days plus.

(not slow like the copper/mahacai spawn leh).

After that one small feeding of bbs...followed directly by daphnia...no problems.

Tried my copper male with the same female above a couple of weeks back...nothing but torn fins to show for it.

[derrick kuah]

sam, did you see your mahachia doing the courting ritual when wooing your copper. they are very different from the normal betta. they are just liked peacock with its upright caudal and outstrecth ventral. it sure a sight to behold. if you missed it . try your mahachia pair . if you can , taped it. thank and ragard derrick++ happy wooing sam ,same to chenhan

[derrick kuah]

sam, did you see your mahachia doing the courting ritual when wooing your copper. they are very different from the normal betta. they are just liked peacock with its upright caudal and outstrecth ventral. it sure a sight to behold. if you missed it . try your mahachia pair . if you can , taped it. thank and ragard derrick++ happy wooing sam ,same to chenhan

[Toh Chen Han]

Hi thanks Derrick. Been treating the bapok copper with interpret anti internal bacteria cos his droppings were grey...scared dropsy. He looked fine otherwise. Yesterday the droppings turned back normal colour. I did a water change this morning, added more anti-internal bacteria and chucked in two pieces ketapang and some salt.

Today when got home the water surface look like someone spat on it. The beginnings of a bubblenest! KNowing him he will abandon the project as it is, but a small step forward. Maybe he's been troubled by some internal problem all this while and the medication is helping. Don't really know.

[Toh Chen Han]

Hi thanks Derrick. Been treating the bapok copper with interpret anti internal bacteria cos his droppings were grey...scared dropsy. He looked fine otherwise. Yesterday the droppings turned back normal colour. I did a water change this morning, added more anti-internal bacteria and chucked in two pieces ketapang and some salt.

Today when got home the water surface look like someone spat on it. The beginnings of a bubblenest! KNowing him he will abandon the project as it is, but a small step forward. Maybe he's been troubled by some internal problem all this while and the medication is helping. Don't really know.

[Samuel Phan]

Yes ... Derrick ... I saw part of the ritual. Pretty nice I have to say ... but was not as observant as you to single out the difference.

Will try the Mahachai soon .... then maybe try to capture the ritual.

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

sam, did you see your mahachia doing the courting ritual when wooing your copper. they are very different from the normal betta. they are just liked peacock with its upright caudal and outstrecth ventral. it sure a sight to behold. if you missed it . try your mahachia pair . if you can , taped it. thank and ragard derrick++ happy wooing sam ,same to chenhan

[Samuel Phan]

Yes ... Derrick ... I saw part of the ritual. Pretty nice I have to say ... but was not as observant as you to single out the difference.

Will try the Mahachai soon .... then maybe try to capture the ritual.

quote:Originally posted by derrick kuah

sam, did you see your mahachia doing the courting ritual when wooing your copper. they are very different from the normal betta. they are just liked peacock with its upright caudal and outstrecth ventral. it sure a sight to behold. if you missed it . try your mahachia pair . if you can , taped it. thank and ragard derrick++ happy wooing sam ,same to chenhan

[Samuel Phan]

Btw ... the fries are free-swimming now and the colour of their body have turned lighter ...
PS: They were very dark in colour when they were still hanging on the bubblenest.

[Samuel Phan]

Btw ... the fries are free-swimming now and the colour of their body have turned lighter ...
PS: They were very dark in colour when they were still hanging on the bubblenest.

[Dr Hsu]

My experience with the coppers is that they are very gentle breeders. My male has spawned twice before and each time had a good spawn and no finnage damage. The last spawn (x copper female that Sam has) gave me 200+ fries at last count. They are now about 3-4 weeks old and starting to show the glint on their fins and body. Not much color on the body yet except for the dark base layer so I suspect the iridescence is a structural "color" as opposed to pigment color. Did not notice differences in growth although they seemed really small on hatching.

[Dr Hsu]

My experience with the coppers is that they are very gentle breeders. My male has spawned twice before and each time had a good spawn and no finnage damage. The last spawn (x copper female that Sam has) gave me 200+ fries at last count. They are now about 3-4 weeks old and starting to show the glint on their fins and body. Not much color on the body yet except for the dark base layer so I suspect the iridescence is a structural "color" as opposed to pigment color. Did not notice differences in growth although they seemed really small on hatching.

[Samuel Phan]

Not for my case ... the Copper Imbellis pair that I have tried ... the female bashed up the male.
As for the fry growth ... cant comment much.

But do you think that your pure copper spawn will thrown out some coppers as well?

Btw ... your 3-4 weeks old fries ... are they from a Copper to Copper spawn?

[Samuel Phan]

Not for my case ... the Copper Imbellis pair that I have tried ... the female bashed up the male.
As for the fry growth ... cant comment much.

But do you think that your pure copper spawn will thrown out some coppers as well?

Btw ... your 3-4 weeks old fries ... are they from a Copper to Copper spawn?

[Toh Chen Han]

Hello. What's a structural colour vs. pigment colour? Never came across these terms before but they sound interesting!

[Toh Chen Han]

Hello. What's a structural colour vs. pigment colour? Never came across these terms before but they sound interesting!

[Dr Hsu]

Yes, my 3-4 week spawn is pure copper - my old copper male x the female you have now. If I'm lucky and the trait follow simple mendelian genetics - ie controlled by 1 recessive gene - then they should be 100% copper, of course varying in amount etc.

Structural color is the color due to either Tyndall effect or inteference of light. Think of the colors you see in those soap bubbles you blew as a kid - they have the colors due to the refraction of light across thin layers of molecules or crystals. Similar in rainbows. So the color you see in structural color is due to the "bending" of light rays rather than pigment (as in inkjet ink color).

[Dr Hsu]

Yes, my 3-4 week spawn is pure copper - my old copper male x the female you have now. If I'm lucky and the trait follow simple mendelian genetics - ie controlled by 1 recessive gene - then they should be 100% copper, of course varying in amount etc.

Structural color is the color due to either Tyndall effect or inteference of light. Think of the colors you see in those soap bubbles you blew as a kid - they have the colors due to the refraction of light across thin layers of molecules or crystals. Similar in rainbows. So the color you see in structural color is due to the "bending" of light rays rather than pigment (as in inkjet ink color).

[Toh Chen Han]

Ok I understand. I find the green and copper imbellis have good (let me call it) light altering properties. My straits imbellis appears green when the lightsource is from the viewer's direction, but blue when the lightsource is perpendicular to the viewer's line of sight (i.e. side or top lighting).

Copper imbellis seem to show their best metallic qualities with side/top lighting. When light is shone straight onto the fish (source in the viewer's direction) the fish appears relatively dull and takes on a purplish hue...and any red wash becomes very apparent.

Any links to articles explaining how structural colour is produced? Or colour in general even. =)

Thanks for the interesting info Dr Hsu!

[Toh Chen Han]

Ok I understand. I find the green and copper imbellis have good (let me call it) light altering properties. My straits imbellis appears green when the lightsource is from the viewer's direction, but blue when the lightsource is perpendicular to the viewer's line of sight (i.e. side or top lighting).

Copper imbellis seem to show their best metallic qualities with side/top lighting. When light is shone straight onto the fish (source in the viewer's direction) the fish appears relatively dull and takes on a purplish hue...and any red wash becomes very apparent.

Any links to articles explaining how structural colour is produced? Or colour in general even. =)

Thanks for the interesting info Dr Hsu!

[Toh Chen Han]

I'm not very clear on genetics but if the appearance of copper is controlled by a simple binary gene pair, and appears when the fish has double recessive genotypes, then would it be right to conclude that all copper x copper spawns would throw only copper fries? (I've heard this is not true...some such spawns allegedly throw green but I'm not sure).

[Toh Chen Han]

I'm not very clear on genetics but if the appearance of copper is controlled by a simple binary gene pair, and appears when the fish has double recessive genotypes, then would it be right to conclude that all copper x copper spawns would throw only copper fries? (I've heard this is not true...some such spawns allegedly throw green but I'm not sure).

[Dr Hsu]

Can't give you real links about color. Mostly gleaned from all those biology classes taken over the last 20-30 yrs, scientific american, new scientist, national geographics, articles and readings on color mutations in birds, etc etc etc. Do a quick search on the net under headings of color, mutations, interference, tyndall effect, etc and you should get a bunch of articles.

Your assumption on the copper genetics is correct. It just needs to be proven - wait a few more weeks and I'll have a better guess then!

[Dr Hsu]

Can't give you real links about color. Mostly gleaned from all those biology classes taken over the last 20-30 yrs, scientific american, new scientist, national geographics, articles and readings on color mutations in birds, etc etc etc. Do a quick search on the net under headings of color, mutations, interference, tyndall effect, etc and you should get a bunch of articles.

Your assumption on the copper genetics is correct. It just needs to be proven - wait a few more weeks and I'll have a better guess then!

[Toh Chen Han]

Thanks! Well I have one link to betta colour genetics (actually two but you all already know about Chris' website so needless to mention)

http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics.htm

Unfortunately no one seems to have done a treatise on copperimbellis genes.

Will have to do more outside reading and observation. And tune in here! =)

[Toh Chen Han]

Thanks! Well I have one link to betta colour genetics (actually two but you all already know about Chris' website so needless to mention)

http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics.htm

Unfortunately no one seems to have done a treatise on copperimbellis genes.

Will have to do more outside reading and observation. And tune in here! =)

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Chen Han,

You have done one spawn of the copper imbellis cross as well ... why not do a new thread on the "Plakat" category to share your experience.

With Best Regards,
Sam

[Samuel Phan]

Hi Chen Han,

You have done one spawn of the copper imbellis cross as well ... why not do a new thread on the "Plakat" category to share your experience.

With Best Regards,
Sam

[Toh Chen Han]

But Sam I haven't managed to outcross the copper. I think the male I have is a dud (probably spawnable in expert/experienced hands but I haven't the patience). So got to rely on Dr Hsu's observations! =)

[Toh Chen Han]

But Sam I haven't managed to outcross the copper. I think the male I have is a dud (probably spawnable in expert/experienced hands but I haven't the patience). So got to rely on Dr Hsu's observations! =)

[Samuel Phan]

To revive this thread ...
Is there anyone out there that have any experience with test tube fries?
What I meant are fries created by squeezing eggs from female and milt from males to do human-assisted fertilization of the eggs?

If yes ... care to share how the eggs are squeezed and how malt are extracted and where is the exact spot ... etc.

And what is the success rate?

[Samuel Phan]

To revive this thread ...
Is there anyone out there that have any experience with test tube fries?
What I meant are fries created by squeezing eggs from female and milt from males to do human-assisted fertilization of the eggs?

If yes ... care to share how the eggs are squeezed and how malt are extracted and where is the exact spot ... etc.

And what is the success rate?

[Chris Yew]

Hi Samuel,

Don't squeeze, juz stroke them out. If you squeeze, you will get those 'pig intestine stuffs' coming out too, haha.

[Chris Yew]

Hi Samuel,

Don't squeeze, juz stroke them out. If you squeeze, you will get those 'pig intestine stuffs' coming out too, haha.

[Foo Hong]

How do you stroke the girl? Can u show us ...kekeke

Also how do you stroke the male. No point just stroking one right?

[Foo Hong]

How do you stroke the girl? Can u show us ...kekeke

Also how do you stroke the male. No point just stroking one right?

[Chris Yew]

Juz as you do for Goldfish. Kenneth may know how to stroke the goldfish..hehe.

[Chris Yew]

Juz as you do for Goldfish. Kenneth may know how to stroke the goldfish..hehe.

[Samuel Phan]

No answer for the male yet?

[Samuel Phan]

No answer for the male yet?

[kennho]

betta too small leh. Squeezing quite dangerous. Eggs still okay but how to do that "stroke" thing on a male (betta lah). hahaha.

[kennho]

betta too small leh. Squeezing quite dangerous. Eggs still okay but how to do that "stroke" thing on a male (betta lah). hahaha.

[Samuel Phan]

I think Shawn did try on his male betta and was successful ... but hatch rate is miserable. Only 10 fries and most died after hatching.

But read from some web site incicating that the milt is only potent for 30 secs ... go have to be fast in the execution.

Any suggestions?

[Samuel Phan]

I think Shawn did try on his male betta and was successful ... but hatch rate is miserable. Only 10 fries and most died after hatching.

But read from some web site incicating that the milt is only potent for 30 secs ... go have to be fast in the execution.

Any suggestions?

[Foo Hong]

put in a plastic bag and shake it like milk shake lah

[Foo Hong]

put in a plastic bag and shake it like milk shake lah

[Samuel Phan]

Hahaha ... but seriously there must be some easier way to do it ... rite?

[Samuel Phan]

Hahaha ... but seriously there must be some easier way to do it ... rite?

[Foo Hong]

Food processor?

[Foo Hong]

Food processor?