Culling bettas......why?

[Foo Hong]

I decided to start this thread after much consideration/hesitation.

Ok lets discuss this in the light of betta breeding as a hobbyist. Focus should be placed on the necessity and reasons behind why bettas[or for that matter any oher kind of ornamental fish] are culled. Everyone is welcomed to chip in, your reasons for and against. However, I would like to advise, if not caution, everyone ahead that there should not be any personal grudges if views differ with others, as I have come across in some poorly moderated forums with immature audience. I thought I wanna say this at the start so that we all put the correct step forward. Lets have matured, constructive and open dialogues.

Next pls.

[Samuel Phan]

Hope pple read this with maturity and hope all readers will respect whatever stand that an individual choose to adopt when they reply to this thread.

Myself ... I cull extensively to ensure quality. Cruel it may seems ... but that is one way to keep the betta population within a manageable number.

I will provide more details when I have more time for story telling.

But one thing I want to comment is that I dun quite enjoy culling too ... which most will probably agree ... but considering the work involve to maintain them. Culling is still the preferred option.

[Chris Yew]

Culling is one way to ensure that your line gets better and better. It should be adopted by breeders and in simple term culling is 'shortlisting' the best from the rest (correct?).

How to cull or method of culling SHOULD NOT be discussed here to avoid conflicts or misunderstanding. It's also not the issue of this topic here.


Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

Agree its not the way to cull that we wanna discuss as that is irrelevant to the intention of this thread. Its the rationale behind culling, what betta should be culled, why do top breeders cull, how does culling ensure quality in a line improves, etc etc.

[Foo Hong]

Well since noty much said so far, Ill start with something. I will add on as I have more story telling time.

Culling is essential in a breeding program to mainly get rid of unwanted traits.

All bettas are not created equal. In a spawn[any kind of fish, eg discus, kois, etc], there variations, just like unless you are a twin sister/brother, you will never look exactly like yr brother/sister/ cousins. To 'refine' a line, undesirable traits has to be eliminated from a line. Culling ensures such traits are not passed on to subsequent generations.

A side effect of this is also that culling inevitably reduces the number of bettas. This makes it easier for managing as it is no easy tasks handling a few hundred jarred fishes. The better quality of fishes overall also makes the hobbyist more interested in his fishes, with that comes better care! Net net prettier fishie ! :)

[Chris Yew]

'Sembetsu' (culling) the Japanese called it for the sorting of their koi. Here's an interesting article about on the culling of koi though not bettas, but a good read and not to be missed; (you will understand better why culling is necessary)
http://home.mindspring.com/~koi1/pg5d.htm

Chris Yew

[Dr Hsu]

I think the problem arises when people equate culling with killing. These two terms are not the same. Culling is just the process of weeding out whatever that does not have the qualities the culler is looking for. He/she may just simply give them away to others, sell, release whatever, and even kill. BUT it is not equal to killing.

I cull, but by putting them in my urns to control mosquitoes or releasing in Animal Resort's pond - whether they get eaten up by the tilapia, ducks, frogs, whatever has nothing to do with the culling process!

Regards,

Li Chieh

"Good judgement is based on experience, and much of that is based on prior bad judgement!"
"The more I know, the more I know that there is more that I don't know!"

[Chris Yew]

Regardless of the types of fish, there are basically 2 types - wild and 'domestic' type. The 'domestic' type is breed to improve on colour, shape, finnage, eye colour and / or size. While the first is content to just maintain a species, the second is not satisfied unless some kind of improvement can be seen in future generations.

Most breeders to limited due to tank space. The best way to help alleviate this constant problem is a combination of extensive culling and wise choice of breeders.

Initial culls are fairly easy and are usually made between the ages of two and four weeks. You then pick out the deformities and any fish that are really short on body size.

The more difficult part comes when you start to cull fish that are just beginning to colour up. There is always the temptation to keep that extra fish just because he is very close to the rest. This is a fatal trap that can ruin an entire generation, instead of producing several fish of outstanding quality you will end up with second rate fish that are small in body size.

At this point the fish whether male or female, is about three months old and you will probably be culling for one of the following traits:-Caudal shape, size, colour;
Dorsal shape, size , colour;
Body shape, size, colour;
remaining genetic defects.

One thing to remember is not to cull for too many different traits in one generation, but pick two or at most three that need the most improvement in your strain. Little changes are easy to make in several generations, the larger will naturally take longer.

... to be continued



Chris Yew

[Foo Hong]

It takes a japanese koi breeder to confirm, but I generally agree with Chris. I was told by a koi hobyist who travels to japan often and told me what he heard/saw.

He said....do you know why the jap kois are so nice and cost so much? Their cull rates are as high as 95% per spawn. You know lah, the japs are very particular abt quality in general. They rather have 1 nice fish and 100 grade 2 fishes.

Something for us to note!

[Samuel Phan]

I have seen a documentary on the Koi breeding, and in the documentary there was a chapter on koi selection.

What I understood from the film is that they cull extensively. Just imagine 95% of a typical spawn size of 10,000 to 20,000.

And the way they cull their fishes? Just gather the unwanted ... bring to a ravine or deserted dried up drain ... just pour the fishes there.

But that is their way of maintaining quality and to make sure that sub-quality fishes have no chance of being spawn.

quote:
It takes a japanese koi breeder to confirm, but I generally agree with Chris. I was told by a koi hobyist who travels to japan often and told me what he heard/saw.

He said....do you know why the jap kois are so nice and cost so much? Their cull rates are as high as 95% per spawn. You know lah, the japs are very particular abt quality in general. They rather have 1 nice fish and 100 grade 2 fishes.

Something for us to note!

[Foo Hong]

read a koi book which says they actually sit there next to the ponds with thousands of kois for days to identify the culls......well well what can I say about their perseverence and quest for quality.

[Samuel Phan]

I believe they did ...
Their culling process starts when the fries are about 3 to 4 cm.
And the ones that I saw in the documentary that were poured down the hill-side are already more than 5 inches. It was a real pity but they are doing the inevitable which they think is better for the qualty of their fishes.

quote:
read a koi book which says they actually sit there next to the ponds with thousands of kois for days to identify the culls......well well what can I say about their perseverence and quest for quality.

[Foo Hong]

Ok think we shld revert to Bettas now that we have determined that culling is part n parcel of line maintennace, and share with others esp newbies on how to approach culling, cos I agree that it is not an easy thing to do for some people. More importantly, how and what do you cull? Unless of cos no one wishes to proceed with the subject.

[Chris Yew]

...continued;

After the deformed fries have been culled, if females can be identified, they can be separated and be pulled out first. You may put all the females in a community tank so as to save space.

Now you may left back with males and some unidentified females to shortlist. Next, with a number of males in mind - pick the best traits you are looking for and dispose of the remainder. In most cases it is wiser to cull any fish that show signs of disease, since treating an entire tank with massive doses of chemicals will have definite adverse effects on future growth of the remaining fish. If you wish to treat the diseased fish, separate it in another tank.

By the time you are ready to choose your breeders, you should only have the best of the traits that you are looking for remaining in your tanks. If you make a poor choice of breeders, you can salvage it only after several generations with the exception of size. Once size has been lost in a strain it is very hard, if not impossible, to recover without out crossing it.

Most of us will tend to loose our line once we cannot find a suitable size females for the male to spawn with. This will be a topic in another thread - How not to loose our line?







quote:
Regardless of the types of fish, there are basically 2 types - wild and 'domestic' type. The 'domestic' type is breed to improve on colour, shape, finnage, eye colour and / or size. While the first is content to just maintain a species, the second is not satisfied unless some kind of improvement can be seen in future generations.

Most breeders to limited due to tank space. The best way to help alleviate this constant problem is a combination of extensive culling and wise choice of breeders.

Initial culls are fairly easy and are usually made between the ages of two and four weeks. You then pick out the deformities and any fish that are really short on body size.

The more difficult part comes when you start to cull fish that are just beginning to colour up. There is always the temptation to keep that extra fish just because he is very close to the rest. This is a fatal trap that can ruin an entire generation, instead of producing several fish of outstanding quality you will end up with second rate fish that are small in body size.

At this point the fish whether male or female, is about three months old and you will probably be culling for one of the following traits:-Caudal shape, size, colour;
Dorsal shape, size , colour;
Body shape, size, colour;
remaining genetic defects.

One thing to remember is not to cull for too many different traits in one generation, but pick two or at most three that need the most improvement in your strain. Little changes are easy to make in several generations, the larger will naturally take longer.

... to be continued



Chris Yew


Chris Yew

[Myron Tay]

Sorry to hijack this thread. But something Kelvin mentioned in another thread (see below) interested me.

I am very interested to know how you deal with all 300-400 fishes since you do not cull any. How many spawns do these constitute? Have you ever had more than that amount? What then? Thanks in advance. This is very useful to me.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

ken you never see my fish room/rack before right? i got about 300-400 fishes, and i never cull any.

[Kelvin Tan]

I usually give them away slowly....or free ones to accompany purchases. my spawn usually about 100-200.....it takes pretty long to clear but still possible. sell cheap etc etc. i do inform my mum of spawn size required so she estimate size of spawn by stopping spawning.

as i mentioned before, culling of fries which contracted disease, is not necessary. the white hm i just spawn him at 1 yr 2 mth old, which is about the 4th time he spawned, got velvet at day 5 after hatching. you never try you never know. i use mother to take care of eggs and fries even. possible, done it. you never try you never know.

yeah we should discuss how and what is the best way to cull, if we need to cull, the least we can do is fastest and most painless way to cull them. feeding to luohan seems best to me, one shot one kill but provided you dun pour all into the tank let them be tank mates first. toilet treatment is the worst you can do. releasing to ponds etc is intermediately right-wrong.

[Myron Tay]

Thanks for sharing. Do you ensure that the people you give to are all responsible enough to take care of your fries? Where do you find such people? Otherwise, the fries may end up suffering a fate worse than death...[V]

Anyhow, one solution that I have come up with is that I release them into my father's quite empty mini Koi pond. They exist quite happily with the Koi in the pond, although I do get the occasional sick betta initially due to the shock of living outdoors for the first time in their lives.

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

I usually give them away slowly....or free ones to accompany purchases. my spawn usually about 100-200.....it takes pretty long to clear but still possible. sell cheap etc etc. i do inform my mum of spawn size required so she estimate size of spawn by stopping spawning.

as i mentioned before, culling of fries which contracted disease, is not necessary. the white hm i just spawn him at 1 yr 2 mth old, which is about the 4th time he spawned, got velvet at day 5 after hatching. you never try you never know. i use mother to take care of eggs and fries even. possible, done it. you never try you never know.

yeah we should discuss how and what is the best way to cull, if we need to cull, the least we can do is fastest and most painless way to cull them. feeding to luohan seems best to me, one shot one kill but provided you dun pour all into the tank let them be tank mates first. toilet treatment is the worst you can do. releasing to ponds etc is intermediately right-wrong.

[Sebas]

toilet treatment is wrong for you, but its not wrong for me. heh

[Tan Xiao YI]

guys...don't forget mother natural cull the weak also...
mother natural cull them with other stronger animals so that even if they r damm useless they got their life worth by feeding the strongers, we cull them because we want the best betta to live on and not to let others got hold of ur line...if you kill your fish i mean cull your fishes with useful users like feeding of other fish or giving to people doesn't seem curel but..if u don't cull it, u live it there to suffer because it is not nice u hv to attend to the nicer 1st..the fishes suffer more that way...
and wat u do have to say about those culling guppy ?and tiger barb ??they too are culling right guys ??[bh][bh] i don't know what i m talking haha again...
console yourself with these if you feel bad culling haha:D

[Kelvin Tan]

tan xiao yi
cos i not mother nature so i take care of them lo

actually you are right. those given away has high possibility of dying. I have checked statistics, those i sold/ give away, usually die thru carelessness of new owners (jump out of tank etc etc ) or lack of knowledge in diagnosing diseases. so those that 'suffer' in my place are in fact better off. my old male though in bad shape is 2 yrs old in a month time. he just hangs there. i also got those betta very weak cannot swim float there like dead, they outlive all their siblings i sold. Food for thought. of course there are those who manage to keep them well and alive. you can easily screen them and guide them to better betta care. You cant come up with a perfect plan so you just try yr best. cant handle give free, if ppl take and fish die, no choice. they'll learn from it and take better care of next fish.

as for me, i have to be responsible to what i have spawned. thats also where we must educate ppl, spawning with knowledge of what quality fries to expect and understand consequence. i dun care if other kill their babies, their dogs their goldfish or koi. i spawn those fries so i try my best. even though i am always overload with fishes i do put in effort to take care of them. i dun actually tend to nicer fishes more. they all get same treatment, just that nicer ones lives in bigger tanks.

till now i never cull any due to ugliness, and i learn a little from every fish that died. To me they died for a reason, so i had better learn something from their death so they dun die for nothing.

that's why i am so into betta, and never give up in curing them. at least i can answer to my previous betta that died from dropsy cos i found a cure for dropsy (not a sure cure but i cured a few!)

curing dropsy fishes gives me better satisfaction from getting HM.

[Brandon Chia]

wah, You mum seems very supportive of your hobby. If i ask my mum to help me to feed them onli sure kana nagged till i concuss one..quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

I usually give them away slowly....or free ones to accompany purchases. my spawn usually about 100-200.....it takes pretty long to clear but still possible. sell cheap etc etc. i do inform my mum of spawn size required so she estimate size of spawn by stopping spawning.

as i mentioned before, culling of fries which contracted disease, is not necessary. the white hm i just spawn him at 1 yr 2 mth old, which is about the 4th time he spawned, got velvet at day 5 after hatching. you never try you never know. i use mother to take care of eggs and fries even. possible, done it. you never try you never know.

yeah we should discuss how and what is the best way to cull, if we need to cull, the least we can do is fastest and most painless way to cull them. feeding to luohan seems best to me, one shot one kill but provided you dun pour all into the tank let them be tank mates first. toilet treatment is the worst you can do. releasing to ponds etc is intermediately right-wrong.

[Kelvin Tan]

quote:Originally posted by Sebas

toilet treatment is wrong for you, but its not wrong for me. heh


as i mentioned, the least we can do to cull fries is to let them die in the fastest and least painful way. think of karma.

when i mention cull i mean those death sentences ones. the rest i call them as unwanted ones. this is my interpretation when reading what i post.

thanks foo hong for bringing this up cull issue, cos i still think we should educate ppl to cull betta the right method.

this is a good read

http://www.bettasrus.com/disease/euthanasia.htm

[Myron Tay]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us Kelvin. I agree that we should take responsiblity for all our spawns. Spawn only what you can handle and not more. I usually try to find an optimal solution to this dilema. We do what we have to do to keep ourselves sane and preserve harmony in the family. Sometimes this involves a decision between equally difficult and tough choices.

[Sebas]

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

quote:Originally posted by Sebas

toilet treatment is wrong for you, but its not wrong for me. heh


as i mentioned, the least we can do to cull fries is to let them die in the fastest and least painful way. think of karma.

when i mention cull i mean those death sentences ones. the rest i call them as unwanted ones. this is my interpretation when reading what i post.

thanks foo hong for bringing this up cull issue, cos i still think we should educate ppl to cull betta the right method.

this is a good read

http://www.bettasrus.com/disease/euthanasia.htm


yes i agree, less pain. my death sentenced ones are those crooked backbones, snakehead etc. I will flush them.

As for those i dont want, feeding them to luohan is my 1st choice, but when my luohan gets sick of bettas, those unlucky ones will still be flushed away. i do not have enough time to release them in pond, cut behind their head, put inside boiling water or whatever induces fast death, even though i want them to suffer less, but i cant make it possible for all.

[Chris Yew]

I personally think that we should not spawn more than we can handle. For example, if I can onli managed 1 spawn at a time for 3mths, then I should not proceed with the second spawn in less than 3mths.

Kelvin, as you have mentioned that you will give away the excess spawn to others but usually they will die due to their carelessness. Since you are awared of this, and it's difficult for you to completely 'screen' thru those ppl that you give your fishes to, whether they are able to take good care of the spawn that you gave them - then you should also consider not giving out to them excessively.

Forgive me for saying this - you are not solving the problem of large spawn size that you have (as you don't cull them) but you are passing the problem of culling to those that you gave it to. Since you know that they may die due to their carelessness, isn't it better to stop it and solve it by spawning juz enough for you to take care of it yourself.

If the number of fishes that you have and the number of spawns you have are just nice for you to handle, then the fishes will definitely be healthy since you got enough time and space to handle them well. You may not even need to worry about treating them with medicine since they are healthy. Guess this is the root of the problem that one should solve and not so much of which is a better solutions to the problem - i.e. culling, giving away or treating sick fish.

Juz my thoughts.

[Tan Xiao YI]

why don't you teach the person before giving the fish away ?
for you u may have space and supportive family to help u deal with large spawn but to others the may not have those so difference peopl choose diff method..as u have say karma...i have been studying in a buddist shcool principle has been a buddist and most of the teacher was too...i can say only a few of them has been a great person,but they do have politic as well even buddist try to "kill" buddist too..
and as in buddistsaid people who have done bad deed this life will recarnite into a animal to suffer...its like a cycle...
this maybe long haha...
man do a bad deed-->turn amimal--->need (A)people to cause suffering to the man-->A cause suffering to the animal--> turn amimal next life-->this cycle goes on n on does it make sense ??
[bh]i think i am blur here hai~~my language s**ks[cr]
quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

tan xiao yi
cos i not mother nature so i take care of them lo

actually you are right. those given away has high possibility of dying. I have checked statistics, those i sold/ give away, usually die thru carelessness of new owners (jump out of tank etc etc ) or lack of knowledge in diagnosing diseases. so those that 'suffer' in my place are in fact better off. my old male though in bad shape is 2 yrs old in a month time. he just hangs there. i also got those betta very weak cannot swim float there like dead, they outlive all their siblings i sold. Food for thought. of course there are those who manage to keep them well and alive. you can easily screen them and guide them to better betta care. You cant come up with a perfect plan so you just try yr best. cant handle give free, if ppl take and fish die, no choice. they'll learn from it and take better care of next fish.

as for me, i have to be responsible to what i have spawned. thats also where we must educate ppl, spawning with knowledge of what quality fries to expect and understand consequence. i dun care if other kill their babies, their dogs their goldfish or koi. i spawn those fries so i try my best. even though i am always overload with fishes i do put in effort to take care of them. i dun actually tend to nicer fishes more. they all get same treatment, just that nicer ones lives in bigger tanks.

till now i never cull any due to ugliness, and i learn a little from every fish that died. To me they died for a reason, so i had better learn something from their death so they dun die for nothing.

that's why i am so into betta, and never give up in curing them. at least i can answer to my previous betta that died from dropsy cos i found a cure for dropsy (not a sure cure but i cured a few!)

curing dropsy fishes gives me better satisfaction from getting HM.

[Foo Hong]

U buddhist? me too :D

Maybe its the way people are brought up lah. We see different things and take different perceptions. Heh u know what, if u go down to sungei tengah area and pretend u were some journalist/reporters or even health inspectors doing spot checks, u will see alot of things in those commercial fish farms. Have you been to any Soon-Hock fish farm before anyway. U know the soon hocks dont eat everyday. they lie waiting for passing prey like stonefish! so every 2 or 3 days, they feed them feeder fishes sent by nearby fish farms whose culls can be any aquatic fish, angelfish, moolies, guppies, and maybe now even bettas n luohans. A 10 x 5m cement tanks probably has 100 soonhocks in there in only 6 inches of water. when the feeder fishes are introduced, wah! the bloody soonhock will eat like African River Nile crocodiles....for the weak hearted, they will prob faint at teh sight [eb]. I asked one owner once, and he said..."aaa.... u watch documentaries, dont u see big fish eat small fish? :D"

quote:Originally posted by Tan Xiao YI

why don't you teach the person before giving the fish away ?
for you u may have space and supportive family to help u deal with large spawn but to others the may not have those so difference peopl choose diff method..as u have say karma...i have been studying in a buddist shcool principle has been a buddist and most of the teacher was too...i can say only a few of them has been a great person,but they do have politic as well even buddist try to "kill" buddist too..
and as in buddistsaid people who have done bad deed this life will recarnite into a animal to suffer...its like a cycle...
this maybe long haha...
man do a bad deed-->turn amimal--->need (A)people to cause suffering to the man-->A cause suffering to the animal--> turn amimal next life-->this cycle goes on n on does it make sense ??
[bh]i think i am blur here hai~~my language s**ks[cr]
quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

tan xiao yi
cos i not mother nature so i take care of them lo

actually you are right. those given away has high possibility of dying. I have checked statistics, those i sold/ give away, usually die thru carelessness of new owners (jump out of tank etc etc ) or lack of knowledge in diagnosing diseases. so those that 'suffer' in my place are in fact better off. my old male though in bad shape is 2 yrs old in a month time. he just hangs there. i also got those betta very weak cannot swim float there like dead, they outlive all their siblings i sold. Food for thought. of course there are those who manage to keep them well and alive. you can easily screen them and guide them to better betta care. You cant come up with a perfect plan so you just try yr best. cant handle give free, if ppl take and fish die, no choice. they'll learn from it and take better care of next fish.

as for me, i have to be responsible to what i have spawned. thats also where we must educate ppl, spawning with knowledge of what quality fries to expect and understand consequence. i dun care if other kill their babies, their dogs their goldfish or koi. i spawn those fries so i try my best. even though i am always overload with fishes i do put in effort to take care of them. i dun actually tend to nicer fishes more. they all get same treatment, just that nicer ones lives in bigger tanks.

till now i never cull any due to ugliness, and i learn a little from every fish that died. To me they died for a reason, so i had better learn something from their death so they dun die for nothing.

that's why i am so into betta, and never give up in curing them. at least i can answer to my previous betta that died from dropsy cos i found a cure for dropsy (not a sure cure but i cured a few!)

curing dropsy fishes gives me better satisfaction from getting HM.

[Kelvin Tan]

if i wanna screen everyone that take my free fish carefully, then i would also have to screen all those i sell fishes too!!!

think those i sell die at the same rate as those i give free. and i'm not talking about sick fishes, but all healthy normal ones. example: our fren ginyew, buy my sala within 2 days died, cos jumped! and its not like he dunno anything about betta! ppl can be careless etc etc

cant have the best of both world, so giving away some, may perhaps make a new friend and perhaps arouse someone interest in betta and another betta lover. i just do the best i can, i still have to sell some good ones to earn some money from betta.

[Tan Xiao YI]

haha i m not but i study in buddist sch so i know about this..haha i am a fee thinker or i belive in $$$ joking maybe we all belive in [33]
haha betta is known as god of wealth fish...thai zhao cai yu$[33]$:D
quote:Originally posted by Foo Hong

U buddhist? me too :D

Maybe its the way people are brought up lah. We see different things and take different perceptions. Heh u know what, if u go down to sungei tengah area and pretend u were some journalist/reporters or even health inspectors doing spot checks, u will see alot of things in those commercial fish farms. Have you been to any Soon-Hock fish farm before anyway. U know the soon hocks dont eat everyday. they lie waiting for passing prey like stonefish! so every 2 or 3 days, they feed them feeder fishes sent by nearby fish farms whose culls can be any aquatic fish, angelfish, moolies, guppies, and maybe now even bettas n luohans. A 10 x 5m cement tanks probably has 100 soonhocks in there in only 6 inches of water. when the feeder fishes are introduced, wah! the bloody soonhock will eat like African River Nile crocodiles....for the weak hearted, they will prob faint at teh sight [eb]. I asked one owner once, and he said..."aaa.... u watch documentaries, dont u see big fish eat small fish? :D"

quote:Originally posted by Tan Xiao YI

why don't you teach the person before giving the fish away ?
for you u may have space and supportive family to help u deal with large spawn but to others the may not have those so difference peopl choose diff method..as u have say karma...i have been studying in a buddist shcool principle has been a buddist and most of the teacher was too...i can say only a few of them has been a great person,but they do have politic as well even buddist try to "kill" buddist too..
and as in buddistsaid people who have done bad deed this life will recarnite into a animal to suffer...its like a cycle...
this maybe long haha...
man do a bad deed-->turn amimal--->need (A)people to cause suffering to the man-->A cause suffering to the animal--> turn amimal next life-->this cycle goes on n on does it make sense ??
[bh]i think i am blur here hai~~my language s**ks[cr]
quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

tan xiao yi
cos i not mother nature so i take care of them lo

actually you are right. those given away has high possibility of dying. I have checked statistics, those i sold/ give away, usually die thru carelessness of new owners (jump out of tank etc etc ) or lack of knowledge in diagnosing diseases. so those that 'suffer' in my place are in fact better off. my old male though in bad shape is 2 yrs old in a month time. he just hangs there. i also got those betta very weak cannot swim float there like dead, they outlive all their siblings i sold. Food for thought. of course there are those who manage to keep them well and alive. you can easily screen them and guide them to better betta care. You cant come up with a perfect plan so you just try yr best. cant handle give free, if ppl take and fish die, no choice. they'll learn from it and take better care of next fish.

as for me, i have to be responsible to what i have spawned. thats also where we must educate ppl, spawning with knowledge of what quality fries to expect and understand consequence. i dun care if other kill their babies, their dogs their goldfish or koi. i spawn those fries so i try my best. even though i am always overload with fishes i do put in effort to take care of them. i dun actually tend to nicer fishes more. they all get same treatment, just that nicer ones lives in bigger tanks.

till now i never cull any due to ugliness, and i learn a little from every fish that died. To me they died for a reason, so i had better learn something from their death so they dun die for nothing.

that's why i am so into betta, and never give up in curing them. at least i can answer to my previous betta that died from dropsy cos i found a cure for dropsy (not a sure cure but i cured a few!)

curing dropsy fishes gives me better satisfaction from getting HM.

[Jack Ng]

I usually use Transmore to put my fish to sleep.

With a heavy dosage, the fish die within second.

[Myron Tay]

I think that screening sellers is also part of our responsibility. But on the whole, I personally think that selling at non-rock bottom prices but at a price that justifies the quality of the fish to a willing buyer is one of the best forms of screening available, since it indicates (to a certain degree) the seriousness of the buyer to take care of a prized fish.
I would argue that it is a mindset thing. If one is willing to part with $50 for a fish, one have to want to keep the fish alive for as long as possible. I am afraid that one would be less caring towards the same fish if it was bought for $10 or gotten free for example. Would you not agree?

My point is that in certain circumstances, culling a fish by using them as feeder fishes or releasing them to the ponds may be a more humane method that giving them away to irresponsible people. Comments, anyone?

quote:Originally posted by Kelvin Tan

if i wanna screen everyone that take my free fish carefully, then i would also have to screen all those i sell fishes too!!!

[kennho]

When comes to this topic of culling, it will depends on the seller point of view. Money is always one of the things come into action on the decision.

Some farms I knew cull like crazy. Within a batch only the better ones are kept to export. But some farms on purpose breed lousy fish which are meant for feeders. That's why you see many pack in bags instead of displaying in tanks.

To us home breeder and seller, it's up to your own style. For some prefered to maintain the best of it's kind and challenge oneself to better each time we breed, culling is essential. But which to cull is another thing that the individual feel most important to his breeding program.

Some prefer not to cull and want to have the best of both world. Maintaining every fish and offering the not-so-good as lower cost fish, maybe free or as feeder fish.

Both parties have their own views, and there will be nothing much to argue about. But please cull the real bad one before landed into someone's hands and start using it to breed and labelling your own name in it. Believe me, it does happen and will continue if the cull process is not done properly.

[Ong Ginyew]

Both parties have their own views, and there will be nothing much to argue about. But please cull the real bad one before landed into someone's hands and start using it to breed and labelling your own name in it. Believe me, it does happen and will continue if the cull process is not done properly.

quoted by kennho.

ya lor....i agree.
its like a black mark in d police record...lol

[Kelvin Tan]

quote:Originally posted by Jack Ng

I usually use Transmore to put my fish to sleep.

With a heavy dosage, the fish die within second.



where to buy transmore? price?

[Samuel Phan]

Question for you guys ...
Tranqulizers like Transmore and Sleepsafe ... does it really work on betta?
Reason for the question is that betta gulps air from the water surface and thus the medications
are less effective on them.
I once used Sleepsave on my betta ... 10 minutes later he was still swimming around ... thus I doubled the dosage ... 20 minutes later ... the bugger is still happily swimming around ... so I am not sure whether transmore and sleepsafe will be a effect culling medication for betta.

For me ... a cold ice cube dip is a fast and probably painless water to cull.
Another alternative will be the Luo Han.

[Kelvin Tan]

eh how effective is ice cube ah? killing rate is how many seconds?

i use interpet phenoxyethanol....manage to cull a few but got one struggle for a pretty long time....bad.

[Samuel Phan]

Ice cubes??? If pure ice cubes that have yet to melt ... take a long time for the fish to die as the fish will be jumping in the ice tub.

Try pouring some water into the tub with say 10-15 ice cubes ... when throw in the fish ... try to sink it to the middle of the tub for faster effect.

The fish will go into hyperthermia (maybe wrong spelling) state within the next 10 seconds if the water a really cold enough.

[Kenny Poh]

To me, culling as Li Chieh had rightly pointed out, doesn't equate to killing the fish. Most of the time, unfortunately, it is so, directly or indirectly (giving to newbies, or inexperienced fishkeepers).

The merits of culling is of course, to maintain a high standard or quality of the fish that you breed. It also means getting rid of any defective fishes or those born with anomalies.

For me, I cull with a single objective of not compromising on the quality of lives for the fishes that I keep. If the fish is born with a defect, I'll cull. If the brood size is too big, I'll also cull and trim them down to manageable size. To me, keeping more fishes than you can handle results in more unhealthy fishes. This will indirectly allow me to keep fishes with the desirable traits that I'd want ton propgagate into future generations.

Of course, it is prudent not to breed so many fishes until one cannot handle. However, the size of a single brood is also highly unpredictable, as I've encountered with an estimated brood size of abt 600 recently. With such a size, it results in frys that grow very slowly, some even look like 1 wk old which is actually 1 mth old. In such cases, these stunted frys would definitely be outcompeted for food and everything, and therefore their quality of life is terrible compromised. For these, I'd have to cull.

My culling method includes:

1. Feeding them to other fishes (for those with defects)
2. Euthanasia thru using anaesthetic (defective ones)
3. Giving them away (for the bigger frys with traits deemed undesirable to me)

To me culling through killing, itself is not an act of cruelty. It really depends on the methods adopted, and the intention behind it. In fact, it can be an act of kindness in cases whereby the fish is already suffering or have their lives compromised in one way or another. I find it even more cruel if you were to keep all of them in cramped quarters, bad water conditions, and always suffering from diseases like velvet or finrot.

Giving away bettas is also a double edged sword. If the bettas find a responsible owner, than all is well and good. However, if it landed in the hands of the ignorant or the irresponsible owners, this is itself is even more cruel than euthanising them. I recently gave some of the healthy culls to a friend of mine to keep, and he instead gave them to his office girls. I found out later that these fishes had been starving for weeks as the girls didn't think that they need to eat that often, and haven't changed water as well. When I warned him against velvet, he even asked me what is that. [bt] So, I think eventually my karma would also be compromised, don't you guys think so?

Sam, sorry for the correction, it should be hypothermia (lowered body temp) and not hyperthermia (increased body temp)

Cheers,

Kenny

[Samuel Phan]

Hehehe ... knew something was wrong in teh spelling ... thanks Kenny for pointing out.
[ber]
quote:Originally posted by Kenny Poh


Sam, sorry for the correction, it should be hypothermia (lowered body temp) and not hyperthermia (increased body temp)

Cheers,

Kenny

[Kelvin Tan]

guess is never a best possible way to it and we'll just do what we think is right after all these discussion

[Ronnie Lau]

Kenny,
What do you recommend as anaesthetic and are they available at LFS?
Regards.
Ronnie.

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Ronnie,

So far, I've been only seen Transmore on sale, and that has worked for me. I've just used it on one of my bettas and it took only 5 drops into a 2L container to work. The anaesthetic will be absorbed through the gills and you find that the fish would slowly lose conciousness before slowly fading away, breathing coming to a halt. It too abt 5 minutes before I'm sure it has passed away.

I don't know what is the active ingredient, which could have been stated on the bottle which I did not bother to read. I bought one bottle for $6.50.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Kelvin Tan]

hmm quite good, but i would use it on about 10ml of water just enough to cover the fish, faster that way.

is it smelly? could be phenoxyethanol

[Kenny Poh]

Hi Kelvin,

It doesn't smell. Your phenoxyethanol is an alcohol, that's why it smells like one. So, your fish gotten drunk to death eh? :-)

Cheers,

Kenny

[Phil]

I use my Louhans as my culling machine. They appear to take care of my culls very well and save me$$$ on feed.

[Phil]

Chris,
Sometimes breeding them at regular intervals is unavoidable especially if you are working on experimental breeding to get to your target. Your once in 3 mths is not going to get you anywhere. I think that breeding should be focused on what you want and what you are going after. You then work towards your objective culling those that don't make the grade along the way.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

I personally think that we should not spawn more than we can handle. For example, if I can onli managed 1 spawn at a time for 3mths, then I should not proceed with the second spawn in less than 3mths.

Kelvin, as you have mentioned that you will give away the excess spawn to others but usually they will die due to their carelessness. Since you are awared of this, and it's difficult for you to completely 'screen' thru those ppl that you give your fishes to, whether they are able to take good care of the spawn that you gave them - then you should also consider not giving out to them excessively.

Forgive me for saying this - you are not solving the problem of large spawn size that you have (as you don't cull them) but you are passing the problem of culling to those that you gave it to. Since you know that they may die due to their carelessness, isn't it better to stop it and solve it by spawning juz enough for you to take care of it yourself.

If the number of fishes that you have and the number of spawns you have are just nice for you to handle, then the fishes will definitely be healthy since you got enough time and space to handle them well. You may not even need to worry about treating them with medicine since they are healthy. Guess this is the root of the problem that one should solve and not so much of which is a better solutions to the problem - i.e. culling, giving away or treating sick fish.

Juz my thoughts.

[Chris Yew]

My regular interval is 3 mths and I'm in no hurry to achieve anything for my bettas at the moment since I'm alreadi too tied up with everything. And that's why I'm not achieving anything great but I enjoy what I'm doing. The point I'm stressing is on having excessively large culls. If we don't wish to cull, we juz have to limit and control our spawn, right?

[Myron Tay]

I am with you on this Chris. I may not produce the world's best fishes this way, but it remains a hobby to me. Breeding is choosen to fit my schedule so that I would continue to enjoy the hobby. It is still fun.

quote:Originally posted by Chris Yew

My regular interval is 3 mths and I'm in no hurry to achieve anything for my bettas at the moment since I'm alreadi too tied up with everything. And that's why I'm not achieving anything great but I enjoy what I'm doing. The point I'm stressing is on having excessively large culls. If we don't wish to cull, we juz have to limit and control our spawn, right?

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Tevin lee

helo guys, can give me some pointers what to do when culling fries? like when to start culling? etc....:D
Tevin

Some considerations on this thread. Perhaps we can take the discussion here? Thanks.

[Myron Tay]

quote:Originally posted by Tevin lee

helo guys, can give me some pointers what to do when culling fries? like when to start culling? etc....:D
Tevin

Some considerations on this thread. Perhaps we can take the discussion here? Thanks.